There are many reasons why people choose to go vegetarian or vegan. Some are compelled by the environmental impact of confinement animal feeding operations (CAFO). Others are guided by ethical concerns or religious reasons. I respect these reasons and appreciate anyone who thinks deeply about the social and spiritual impact of their food choices—even if my own exploration of these questions has led me to a different answer.
But many choose a vegetarian diet is because they’re under the impression that it’s a healthier choice from a nutritional perspective. It is this last reason that I’d like to address in this article. For the last fifty years, we’ve been told that meat, eggs and animal fats are bad for us, and that we’ll live longer and enjoy superior health if we minimize or avoid them. This idea has been so thoroughly drilled into our head that few people even question it anymore. In fact, if you asked the average person on the street whether a vegetarian or vegan diet is healthier than an omnivorous diet, they’d probably say yes. But is this really true?
Plant-based diets emphasize vegetables, which are quite nutrient dense, and fruits, which are somewhat nutrient dense. However, they also typically include large amounts of cereal grains (refined and unrefined) and legumes, both of which are low in bioavailable nutrients and high in anti-nutrients such as phytate, and they eschew organ meats, meats, fish and shellfish, which are among the most nutrient-dense foods you can eat. (1)
Vegan diets, in particular, are almost completely devoid of certain nutrients that are crucial for physiological function. Several studies have shown that both vegetarians and vegans are prone to deficiencies in B12, calcium, iron, zinc, the long-chain fatty acids EPA & DHA, and fat-soluble vitamins like A & D.
Let’s take a closer look at each of these nutrients on a vegetarian or vegan diet.
Are plant-based diets missing nutrients required for optimal health? Find out!
Vitamin B12
B12 deficiency is especially common in vegetarians and vegans. I’ve covered the prevalence of B12 deficiency in vegetarians and vegans at length in another article. The takeaway is that the most recent studies using more sensitive techniques for detecting B12 deficiency have found that 68% of vegetarians and 83% of vegans are B12 deficient, compared to just 5% of omnivores. (2)
Vitamin B12 works together with folate in the synthesis of DNA and red blood cells. It’s also involved in the production of the myelin sheath around the nerves, and the conduction of nerve impulses. B12 deficiency can cause numerous problems, including:
- Fatigue
- Lethargy
- Weakness
- Memory loss
- Neurological and psychiatric problems
- Anemia
- And much more…
The effects of B12 deficiency on kids are especially alarming. Studies have shown that kids raised until age 6 on a vegan diet are still B12 deficient years after adding at least some animal products to their diet. In one study, the researchers found:
…a significant association between cobalamin [B12] status and performance on tests measuring fluid intelligence, spatial ability and short-term memory” with formerly vegan kids scoring lower than omnivorous kids in each case. (3)
The deficit in fluid intelligence is particularly troubling, the researchers said, because:
…it involves reasoning, the capacity to solve complex problems, abstract thinking ability and the ability to learn. Any defect in this area may have far-reaching consequences for individual functioning.
A common myth amongst vegetarians and vegans is that it’s possible to get B12 from plant sources like seaweed, fermented soy, spirulina and brewers yeast. But plant foods said to contain B12 actually contain B12 analogs called cobamides that block the intake of, and increase the need for, true B12. (4)
Calcium
On paper, calcium intake is similar in vegetarians and omnivores (probably because both eat dairy products), but is much lower in vegans, who are often deficient. (5) However, calcium bioavailability from plant foods is affected by their levels of oxalate and phytate, which are inhibitors of calcium absorption and thus decrease the amount of calcium the body can extract from plant foods. (5a) So while leafy greens like spinach and kale have a relatively high calcium content, the calcium is not efficiently absorbed during digestion.
One study suggests that it would take 16 servings of spinach to get the same amount of absorbable calcium as an 8 ounce glass of milk. (5b) That would be 33 cups of baby spinach or around 5-6 cups of cooked spinach. There are a few vegetables listed in this paper that have higher levels of bioavailable calcium, but it’s important to note that all of the vegetables tested required multiple servings to achieve the same amount of usable calcium as one single serving of milk, cheese, or yogurt. This suggests that trying to meet your daily calcium needs from plant foods alone (rather than dairy products or bone-in fish) might not be a great strategy.
Iron
Vegetarians eat a similar amount of iron to omnivores, but as with calcium, the bioavailability of the iron in plant foods is much lower than in animal foods. Plant-based forms of iron are also inhibited by other commonly consumed substances, such as coffee, tea, dairy products, supplemental fiber, and supplemental calcium. This explains why vegetarians and vegans have lower iron stores than omnivores, and why vegetarian diets have been shown to reduce non-heme iron absorption by 70% and total iron absorption by 85%. (6, 7)
Zinc
Overt zinc deficiency is not often seen in Western vegetarians, but their intake often falls below recommendations. This is another case where bioavailability is important; many plant foods that contain zinc also contain phytate, which inhibits zinc absorption. Vegetarian diets tend to reduce zinc absorption by about 35% compared with omniovorous diet. (8) Thus, even when the diet meets or exceeds the RDA for zinc, deficiency may still occur. One study suggested that vegetarians may require up to 50% more zinc than omnivores for this reason. (9)
EPA and DHA
Plant foods do contain linoleic acid (omega-6) and alpha-linolenic acid (omega-3), both of which are considered essential fatty acids. In this context, an essential fatty acid is one that can’t be synthesized by the body and must be obtained in the diet. However, an increasing body of research has highlighted the benefits of the long-chain omega-3 fatty acids EPA & DHA. These fatty acids play a protective and therapeutic role in a wide range of diseases: cancer, asthma, depression, cardiovascular disease, ADHD, and autoimmune diseases, such as rheumatoid arthritis.
While it is possible for some alpha-linolenic acid from plant foods to be converted into EPA & DHA, that conversion is poor in humans: between 5-10% for EPA and 2-5% for DHA. (10) Vegetarians have 30% lower levels of EPA & DHA than omnivores, while vegans have 50% lower EPA and nearly 60% lower DHA. (11) Moreover, the conversion of ALA to DHA depends on zinc, iron and pyridoxine—nutrients which vegetarians and vegans are less likely than omnivores to get enough of.
Fat-soluble vitamins: A and D
Perhaps the biggest problem with vegetarian and vegan diets, however, is their near total lack of two fat-soluble vitamins: A and D. Fat-soluble vitamins play numerous and critical roles in human health. Vitamin A promotes healthy immune function, fertility, eyesight and skin. Vitamin D regulates calcium metabolism, regulates immune function, reduces inflammation and protects against some forms of cancer.
These important fat-soluble vitamins are concentrated, and in some cases found almost exclusively, in animal foods: primarily seafood, organ meats, eggs and dairy products. Some obscure species of mushrooms can provide large amounts of vitamin D, but these mushrooms are rarely consumed and often difficult to obtain. (This explains why vitamin D levels are 58% lower in vegetarians and 74% lower in vegans than in omnivores.) (12)
The idea that plant foods contain vitamin A is a common misconception. Plants contain beta-carotene, the precursor to active vitamin A (retinol). While beta-carotene is converted into vitamin A in humans, the conversion is inefficient. (13) For example, a single serving of liver per week would meet the RDA of 3,000 IU. To get the same amount from plant foods, you’d have to eat 2 cups of carrots, one cup of sweet potatoes or 2 cups of kale every day. Moreover, traditional cultures consumed up to 10 times the RDA for vitamin A. It would be nearly impossible to get this amount of vitamin A from plant foods without juicing or taking supplements.
But don’t vegetarians live longer than omnivores?
At this point you might be thinking, “Well, so what if plant-based diets are lower in some nutrients. Everyone knows vegetarians live longer than omnivores!” While it’s true that some observational studies suggest that vegetarians and vegans enjoy longer lifespans, these studies were plagued by the “healthy user bias”. The healthy user bias is the scientific way of saying that people who engage in one behavior that is perceived as healthy (whether it is or not) are more likely to engage in other behaviors that are healthy. For example, vegetarians tend to be more health conscious on average than general population; they are less likely to smoke or drink excessively and more likely to exercise, eat fruits and vegetables and take care of themselves. (14)
Of course the flip-side is also true: those that engage in behaviors perceived to be unhealthy are more likely to engage in other unhealthy behaviors. The healthy user bias is one of the main reasons it’s so difficult to infer causality from observational studies. For example, say a study shows that eating processed meats like bacon and hot dogs increases your risk of heart disease. Let’s also say, as the healthy user bias predicts, that those who eat more bacon and hot dogs also eat a lot more refined flour (hot dog and hamburger buns), sugar and industrial seed oils, and a lot less fresh fruits, vegetables and soluble fiber. They also drink and smoke more, exercise less and generally do not take care of themselves very well. How do we know, then, that it’s the processed meat that is increasing the risk of heart disease rather than these other things—or perhaps some combination of these other things and the processed meat?
One way to answer that question is to design a study that attempts to control for at least some of the healthy user bias. In other words, instead of comparing the “average” meat eater (who tends to be less health conscious) with the “average” vegetarian (who tends to be more health conscious), what happens when you compare vegetarians and omnivores that are both health-conscious?
Thankfully, we have a study that did just that. It compared the mortality of people who shopped in health food stores (both vegetarians and omnivores) to people in the general population. This was a clever study design. People who shop in health food stores are more likely to be health conscious, regardless of whether they eat meat, which reduces the likelihood that the study results will be thrown off by the “healthy user bias”. What did the researchers find? Both vegetarians and omnivores in the health food store group lived longer than people in the general population—not surprising given their higher level of health consciousness—but there was no survival difference between vegetarians or omnivores. Nor was there any difference in rates of heart disease or stroke between the two groups. (15) In other words, omnivores who are health conscious live just as long as vegetarians that are health conscious.
Final thoughts
With care and attention, I think it’s possible to meet nutrient needs with a vegetarian diet that includes liberal amounts of pasture-raised, full-fat dairy and eggs, with one exception: EPA and DHA. These long-chain omega fats are found exclusively in marine algae and fish and shellfish, so the only way to get them on a vegetarian diet would be to take a microalgae supplement (which contains DHA) or bend the rules and take fish oil or cod liver oil as a supplement. Still, while it may be possible to obtain adequate nutrition on a vegetarian diet, it is not optimal—as the research above indicates.
I do not think it’s possible to meet nutrient needs on a vegan diet without supplements—and quite a few of them. Vegan diets are low in B12, biovailable iron and zinc, choline, vitamin A & D, calcium, and EPA and DHA. So if you’re intent on following a vegan diet, make sure you are supplementing with those nutrients.
It’s worth pointing out that there are genetic differences that affect the conversion of certain nutrient precursors (like beta-carotene and alpha-linolenic acid) into the active forms of those nutrients (like retinol and EPA and DHA, respectively), and these differences may affect how long someone will be able to follow a vegetarian or vegan diet before they develop nutrient deficiencies. This explains why some people seem to do well for years on these diets, while others develop problems very quickly.
From an evolutionary perspective, is difficult to justify a diet with low levels of several nutrients critical to human function. While it may be possible to address these shortcomings through targeted supplementation (an issue that is still debated), it makes far more sense to meet nutritional needs from food. This is especially important for children, who are still developing and are even more sensitive to suboptimal intake of the nutrients discussed in this article. Like all parents, vegetarians and vegans want the best for their children. Unfortunately, many are not aware of the potential for nutrient deficiencies posed by their dietary choices.
I hope this article can serve as a resource for anyone on a plant-based diet, whether they choose to start eating meat (or animal products, in the case of vegans) again or not.
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frankly i am sick of all these comments……being a vegetarian for some of us is something we absolutely must do…..if i am unhealthy for it the rest of my life well then i will deal with it knowing i have not killed any animals much less eaten them….it is ridiculous to debate this…..either you slaughter and eat other very intelligent beings on this planet or you don’t and you take some supplements and you know that you are doing right by not murdering….the rest is just non- sense……you have to die of something….however in general i like Kris and what he has to say…..even Mercola tells one to eat animal products……they are just not evolved enough….the end….
i lost respect for this author when he said vegans are b12 deficient. really? then why is it that i know meat eaters that drink milk, eat meat, and dairy and they are b12 deficient???
That’s like saying “I know water-drinkers who are dehydrated often.” The reason why the people you know are b12 deficient is because they simply do not eat enough of it. Also, did you see that the author states that 5%of omnivores are b12 deficient? You should read all of the information and not just what you want to read.
I am a pescetarian. You talk about DHA and EPA but not arachidonic acid. The ratio of DHA + EPA + DPA/ ARA is very bad in meat, poultry, fowl, organ meat and eggyolk is bad. Omega 6/3 ratio is also very bad. It is also true about butter and some fat cheese. avoid this. In milk you get enough B12 D vitamin and omega 3. Iron combined with c vitamin makes it easy to absorb iron and if you add some seafood even better. I don´t eat 150 kg of fish every year but at least 300 to 400 grams a week of fat fish. You also have to Think of gout. Why get it if you don´t need to.
Hi,
I am young, really young still in my early teens, i have recently been shown the light of the cruelty and inhuman ways of factory farming. And i absolutly want to go vegetarian because of ethical reasons, however my parents are not that convinced since they are worried that i won’t get ‘enough nutrition’ (especially about iron, zinc vitamin b12 deficiencies) even though i have shown them your articles and other information from intensive research. How do i convince them that i should go vegetarian? And how can i tell if a product is ethically manufactured?
Thank You!
Hi Erica –
I study nutrition at Rochester Institute of Technology. The program accredited for registered dieticians. You could have your parents contact me if you wish. I am 46 years old, have been on an all plant based diet for 3 years. My mother (65) son (22) and fiance (46) are also all plant based. I also have a background in exercise physiology and used to be a personal trainer. I would love to explain to you or your parents about nutrition and where it comes from more in detail but the short of it is as follows, and this is in every textbook for dieticians:
All vitamins, minerals and nutrients including protein comes from plants. Plants have broadband capabilities to synthesize proteins whereas animals do not. The way for any animal or human to get protein is one of two ways: eat plants or eat an animal that ate plants. The plants make protein from the nutrients in the soil and from the sun. The only vitamin a human can get from the sun directly is vitamin D. Vitamin D does not occur naturally in milk – it is added to it so milk is not the real way to get Vitamin D. The sun or a supplement is. Vitamin B12 comes from soil. It is only in the animals because they eat grass and they don’t wash the grass before eating it. Unfortunately they are not allowed to eat grass anymore and forced to eat diets of grain and candy and any throw away food (they used to be allowed to feed them cement and chicken poop too) and so cows are now given supplements of B12. B 12 is manufactured by microorganisms in the soil and it runs off into water. Since we humans do wash our produce and drink filtered water now it is good to take a B12 supplement. It is not naturally occurring in an animal. The animal gets it from soil and water, the same way we used to before we washed everything. Since all nutrition does come from plants, there is nothing healthier than an all plant based diet. The advantage is that you also get fiber and flavenoids and antioxidants not found in flesh. I would love to tell you more. Just let me know.
Laurie conrad_laurie@yahoo.com
“Take supplements”.
I must disagree. We should eat all natural food. The best source of B12 is organ meat such as beef liver. Vitamins in supplements are often times synthetic compounds that “mimic” real vitamins. This is NOT healthy.
Plant based diet is not healthy. If you care about animal cruelty, then you should accept that, living an unhealthy life is the price you are willing to pay.
How to tell if a product is ethical: As long as it did not come from an animal then that is a start. The most ethical diet is the one you grow yourself. But if you can’t then visiting a local farmer is the next best step. But the first step is not eating any animal or her products.
Wow, Erica, so impressed with your awareness and willingness to begin this most valuable journey. This is the only path to change the world at this point – each person coming to awareness of how their own choices support industry’s cruel practices which are devised purely for profit and brutalize all involved – including the consumer. I see Laurie has reached out to you -kudos to her. You can also check Vegetarian Health Institute which is a brilliant simple source or Dr. Michael Klaper, Ritamarie Loscalzo, or just google any question you think of and the riches of the internet will provide a variety of answers. Laurie’s answers on B12 was brilliant btw and true! And my favorite source of inspiration – YouTube “Luiz Antonio and why he won’t eat his octopus.”
Erica, you can also tell your parents that the largest land animals got that way on a purely plant diet… If it works for an elephant it should work for you. That’s always a mouth-shutter!
That’s all well and good, apart from the fact the we are not actually elephants, and did not evolve on the same diet, seriously, this is a total lack of science or logic (the first things to go on a strictly Vegan diet)
it’s articles like these that discourage people on the edge of becoming vegan/vegetarian. could there be on non bias article out there? when I searched “vegan or not vegan” it unanimously came up with, “vegan is bad, you don’t get enough vitamins, you lack nutrition, not any healthier” well neither vegan/vegetarian or omnivore diets are perfect. if you looked at the other reasons people want to switch over you’d get their desicon
Mark, check out Vegetarian Health Institute online. I’ve been working my way through 50 very clear, simple lessons that answer everything in a very clear, simple way. Also check the website of Dr. Michael Klaper who has been vegan for 25 years and who provides info to the Vegetarian Health Institute lectures. Also can check Ritamarie Loscalzo. There is simple clear info out there and these are my best recommendations for a start….
One cup of sweet potatoes in one day is nearly impossible? I’m no competition eater but I’m confident I could force that down.
i am so tired of this vegan-vegetarian bashing articles…
Just why can’t we accept the way people eat. I neither of the two. However I have very many friends who are vegetarians for generations and they are in perfect health. Their kids are great looking too.
I see this article being posted everywhere like it usually happens in the health foodie circle – all waif bloggers post the same over and over again. Just tired of it.
Btw, I have no issues with individuals thoughts but remember it is your truth only. Don’t impose it on others. This is for the bloggers and make it the universal truth
Let’s not be food racial.
You do realise of course that the meat and dairy industries actually employ ‘agent provocateurs’ to write articles like this trying to destroy the credibility of veganism?
Many of these types of Internet blogs are written by such people and sadly there are all to many meat and dairy consumers who are only to happy to be told what allows them to continue being selfish without having to feel guilty (assuming some of them otherwise would!) because now they can continue their selfish habits and believe they’re doing the right thing at the same time.
That’s a real example of ‘shoehorning a diet into a lifestyle’.
He/she does explain to us that he/she has respect for people’s food choices while also stating facts… Being vagitarian or vegan is in fact unhealth by replacing meat with unhealthy CHEMICALLY MADE PROTIN POWDER…
Of course he/she does. He/she would look a bit obvious if he/she didn’t. The whole point is to make it plausible otherwise no one will believe it.
If we are going to discuss what is healthy or not with respect to food choices then we can only do so seriously if we consider EVERYONE INVOLVED in a particular dietary choice.
As an analogy we wouldn’t discuss the issue of rape by discussing whether or not it was beneficial for (only) the rapist.
An extreme example?… perhaps, but the PRINCIPLE is identical because eating meat involves not just the consumer but also the consumed. So, if we stop thinking selfishly for just a moment. It is actually far less healthy overall.
A non-meat product may or may not adversely affect me in some way (and for every bit of science that says it will there’s a bit that says it won’t) but the risks appear small and negligible given that so many people have been eating them healthily for so many years now.
We can argue either way on that.
However, what isn’t in doubt is this…
a vegan diet MAY or MAY NOT involve some risk to me (just like crossing the road really) but it completely avoids the death of an innocent party which, if that were you, you would insist was important.
So..
Vegan diet: debatable risk to the consumer (although I personally I doubt it)
Meat diet: debatable risk to the consumer and guaranteed death to the consumed.
Now which should we consider to be “least healthy”?
It just comes down to each of us thinking outside our own little box and considering the bigger picture. Doing that is something (one of the few things left) which actually defines us as different from other species.
In fact it reminds me of a quote from the animal rights activist and author Isaac Beshavis Singer who, when at a dinner party was asked by a woman. …
“Are you abstaining from eating chicken for health reasons Mr Singer?”
He replied…
“Yes madam! For the health of the chicken! “
Sure is difficult to digest all of the information and make an informed decision. My wife and I have been vegan for 2 months (ok, we cheat a little bit with fish) – we try to take supplements that we feel are necessary. For every great article that supports Vegan or Vegetarian, there is another article that chastises the diet. I only wish I had enough knowledge to decipher who to believe. Education and research is the key but I sure seem to run into a lot of contradictory information on how vitamins and minerals are or are not absorbed and what is and what is not healthy..
Hi
I always mention when people ask me about my vegetarian diet, that they need to educate themselves just like you would think people would do when they are on a meat based diet.
I have been a vegetarian for over 30 years and I am now in my 60’s I love it and I find it has made me more aware of nutrition and the essential minerals vitamins etc the body needs.
And “animals are my friends and I don’t eat my friends”. (George Bernard Shaw) All the best, it is good to educate people so that they can be responsible for their own decisions.
What do you eat and do you supplement, if so what do you supplement, and what about collagen Arthritis etc…, I attempted vega diet and bout killed me, lost 40 lbs, and becameso weak could not hardly walk, I packed away more and more calories did no good, No Hard shugars either, I even supplemented last month’s before Doctor took me off the diet, was at 207, down from a atheletic 270, I am now back to meat’s egg’s, as I wish, still supplementing at up to healthy 240 with muscles packing back on thank you
The most critical supplement would be Vitamin B12, assuming the diet is made up of mostly unprocessed vegetables, legumes, nuts, seeds, whole grains, and fruit. Although you can get some Omega 3s from nuts, seeds, and greens, it might also be wise to use a vegan, algae-derived DHA/EPA supplement. You would get the benefits of fish oil without the negatives. (Fish get their DHA/EPA from algae.) Vitamin D is often recommended for people who don’t get enough sunshine due to lifestyle or geographical location. Maybe when you went vegan, you were consuming more of something that you unknowingly have a problem with? Wheat or soy, maybe? Neither of those is necessary on a vegan diet. Regarding arthritis, many people with arthritis find relief when they go on a whole foods vegan diet, because of the inflammatory nature of dairy and some meats. Best wishes to you.
I see a lot of the critics in the comments believe that if you don’t feel well eating a vegetarian or vegan diet, you’re doing it wrong. It took me many years to realize that this way of thinking is just the beginning of the slippery slope to orthorexia — and yet it’s probably the most commonly argued veg(etari)an propaganda you’ll hear. Please quit telling people that they’re doing your lifestyle wrong — *your* lifestyle isn’t necessarily right for everyone, and it’s damaging to other people to try and convince them otherwise.
I understand what you’re saying, but I”m not sure which comments you’re directing it toward. For example, I think suggesting that a vegan (or any) diet is healthier if it minimizes processed foods and includes healthy fats is just plain good advice.
I strongly disagree that healthy omnivores eat “liberal amounts” of EPA and DHA containing fish. I think healthy omnivores tend to eat plenty of vegetables and small amounts of healthy animal protein, usually fish. I also think the thing that really helps them is the lack of processed food. As a vegetarian, who is not particularly healthy due to eating more than the recommended amount of convenience food!, I have made some changes in my diet to improve nutrient intake. I traded bread for nuts, soda for fruit juice spritzers and sugary cereals for plain, instant oatmeal. This, in addition to substituting beans and soy for meat and fish, should take care of any of those deficiencies you mention above. Though it is true that plant foods often have less absorbable nutrients, I believe most heavy meat eaters consume more of these nutrients than they need, considering the calories and cholesterol accompanying them. I also think many people eat too many empty calories, lots of fast food and soda and a healthy dose of vegetables wouldn’t hurt them any. A vegetarian diet encourages vegetable consumption.
I would have to agree. When I still ate meat, I NEVER ate any type of seafood, and neither does my family. We live on the plains and fish just isn’t something that is consumed often here. There are plenty of people not eating seafood, in which it is claimed the only place that you can get these nutrients, yet omnivores who don’t eat seafood don’t have this issue…hmmm.
Layla, you talk about a Chinese medical doctor who is from a culture which has a long history of knowing the medicinal properties of food. Are we talking about the culture that is chopping and boiling every wild animal on the planet into extinction in order to make it’s sex potions? Not to mention boiling whatever cats and dogs they can get their hands on alive just for the regular medicinal lunch?
I am looking forward to long term prospective studies on diet. There are plenty of long term epidemiological observational type studies of indigenous diets diets all over the world where people had low rates of the now common “western diseases.” I don’t know of any purely vegetarian societies though. Usually at least some milk and eggs. It doesn’t take a lot of at least some animal based foods. Not the slabs of steaks most people talk about. But my observation after being a vegetarian for 15 years and observing people with chronic pain is that a vegetarian diet certainly doesn’t work for everyone. May be some folks but not everyone. So the take home message should be that the is huge variability in what will work for people. Maybe in the winter, more animal based foods and less or none in the summer varying the diet throughout the year. That is probably the most beneficial diet for our gut bacteria as well. But, like I said, I am waiting for long term prospective studies to get the real answers. I wish I could be a vegan for moral reasons–I don’t like the idea of killing animals but it certainly didn’t work for me after a while.
“…but there was no survival difference between vegetarians or omnivores.”
Could a take-away be that the best thing we can do is to avoid those things that health-food shoppers? I don’t mean to be too much of a naysayer, but from a devil’s advocate perspective, it seems to me that the study you’re referencing causes damage to the bio-availability argument (etc) that you put forward in the article?
I could really go for a big thick juicy red meat steak right now. mmm….
There always seems to be at least one inane, unfunny and completely useless comment like this one in any discussion that mentions vegans. How original of you.
The author may wish to use current research. A balanced vegan diet will promote a thriving human. The key is balanced. This is true for any diet. A little training may be required as a balanced diet is not the old diet minus animal products. A balance diet does not require a load of grains. This article is a good source of examples of debate tricks to win an argument with out relevant facts.
I totally agree with Michaelb. For years I’m improved my “balanced” vegan diet with plant based foods and supplements, and feel I’m in excellent health for a 63 year old! Almost daily saunas help tremendously with detoxing! Not to mention…what an enjoyable way to detox!!
I have horses and dogs. They both need and eat protein. My horses eat grass and hay (plant protein). They have many side to side grinding molars, a digestive process called hind-gut fermentation, a large cecum (like your appendix) that is attached to their large intestines with tons of strong bacteria, in order to utilize plant protein. My dogs chew with a chopping action, have a very short digestive system, way more potent stomach acids. In summary completely different animals and I think humans are in between. Plant protein and animal protein require very different systems in order to be utilized.
Humans have the most in common physiologically and anatomically with frugivores (which includes other primates), whose diets primarily consist of fruits, vegetables, nuts, and seeds, but who also have the capability to digest other foods.
Except that Frugivores get most of their actual energy by converting the carbohydrates to short chain fats. Humans can’t do this efficiently enough.
If a human eats that amount of fruit they get most of the energy from sugar and don’t get enough fat.
Fat is much more important to humans without the digestive systems that facilitate this conversion.
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/should-all-animals-eat-a-high-fat-low-carb-diet.html#.VNkFZy5wu3F
None of the animals on the list of Herbivores get the majority of their energy from carbohydrates like we do if we eat like that.
Sorry, but this just sounds like anti-vegan BS. I’ve been a vegan for over 15 years, and at age 55 my doctor tells me that I have the heart and physique of a 29-year-old. I run marathons regularly, and usually finish in the top 10%. My weight and blood pressure are now ideal, and I am literally in the best shape of my life.
It’s entirely possible to feel OK and still be lacking on some important health metrics. For example, I never felt a vitamin D deficiency. Running marathons can be fun, but it’s strength training that stimulates mitochondrial growth – did your doctor tell you anything about that?
There are many aspects of health. Being pro or anti-vegan isn’t really nearly as important as being pro-health, regardless of dietary philosophy.
Hello!
My point was that, contrary to the article’s claims, a vegan diet can be entirely healthy. Obviously ANY diet can be unhealthy if it’s not done correctly.
And thank you for your concern–but I have NO vitamin deficiencies. And while I don’t concentrate on strength training myself, I have plenty of vegan friends that do.
This article is really the biggest piece of rubbish and BS that I have seen for a long time. The writer has no knowledge or clue of what they are talking about. If we follow a PROPER vegan diet as so many of us do, we are doing what is best for our health, the environment and the animals (who are violently and barbarically mistreated and all for nothing). I really can’t stand it when ignorance is so obvious as in this article.
You are incorrect. The author is a Chinese medicine Dr. which has thousands of years of understanding of the medicinal quality of food. In Chinese medicine we need animal products to nourish certain aspects in order to maintain balance in the body. Veganism is a new fad and as humans have been around for hundreds of thousands of years – there is no sustainable culture on earth that is vegan. Woman who are are vegan diets have a hard time reproducing and people who may stay on a vegan diet will find that aging (past their 50s ) will be very difficult.
Your claim about reproductive difficulties while vegan is unsubstantiated. There is no effect on fertility with adequate calories and healthful, plant-based fats. In fact, the higher intake of folate in the diet by most vegans helps prevent neurological birth defects.
The claim about vegans finding aging past their 50s “difficult” is ludicrous. Vegans have lower rates of heart disease, diabetes, and obesity than meat eaters or vegetarians. In my mid-50s, I am the only vegan in my family of origin, and also happen to be the only adult who isn’t on prescription medications, such as statins and blood-pressure reducers. Google Ellsworth Wareham, M.D., centenarian vegan who retired from working as a heart surgeon in his 90s. He’s profiled in the book Blue Zones. Then there’s Donald Watson, the Englishman who coined the term “vegan.” He became vegan in the 1940s and died in 2005 after an active and healthy life at the age of 95. And Ruth Heidrich, who switched to a vegan diet in 1982, when she was diagnosed with an aggressive form of cancer. She is now a 79-year-old motivational speaker, eight-time senior Olympic gold medalist, and six-time Ironman triathlon finisher.
Layla, I am also a Chinese Medicine Dr AND vegan.
I agree with Suzy & Judy. He needs to look at more up to date research and get his facts straight.
TCM also promotes some animal products which are endangered species, which most western practitioners do not use for ethical reasons. In the same way, an ethical diet/lifestyle like veganism can be amazing for you, like any diet done correctly, without harming anyone.
Vegan has grown into a fad diet in the recent years, and I am glad someone finally speaks about the real risks of such behaviours.
Yeah eating a diet that is beneficial to the environments/oceans/rainforests/wildlife/starving children(grain grown in poor nations is sold to affluent nations to fatten up your beef) is such a fad. I mean doing good for the planet is pointless, it doesn’t benefit you at all! You have to give up steak,milk,eggs,cheese…I mean if I want to eat these foods at the expense of the planet let me! (obvious sarcasm)
It’s really not that difficult to switch to a vegetarian or vegan diet provided you can experience the benefits or ROI. The physical and mental benefits of switching from a meat based diet become more obvious when you also change your lifestyle routines. Incorporating new fun physical and mental activities, ones that you may have left behind years ago when professional commitments started to become top priority. By bringing back the fun physical and mental things you did when you were younger you will see how a more healthy body and mind can regain its lost flexibility, spirited love of life and adventure. A plant based diet can help you get there. Peter Sabbagh | Founder http://www.thinkmatcha.com/
I’ve been a Vegetarian (with minimal dairy) for about a year and haven’t felt better. I do take a daily multivitamin but I’ve grown accustomed to cooking my own meals 95% of the time and heave become a better cook and saved money because of it.
In all honesty you could drink a Red Bull for a bit over a dollar a day and cover your B12 deficiency and then some by a large margin so that’s a silly point. Then again I hate coffee and can tolerate energy drinks so I may be bias. And soy milk is very nutrient dense as well…
The only reason I’m not a 100% vegan is because my family insists on eating out every couple of months and I end up eating cheese now and then due to that.
Still, I’m doing great, I have biceps that are larger than most meat eaters yet weigh quite a bit less and am faster. There are benefits to plant protein over laggy but more dense meat protein.
I hated Tofu at first but as time went on it’s my go-to additive to soups and I love it.
If you are’t 100% vegan then you aren’t vegan… you don’t get an 84% vegan… you either are or aren’t
He didn’t say he was vegan, he said he was vegetarian. duh
Soy Milk? Get with it, it’s 2015 for christ sake! No one uses soy milk any more, it’s not good for you and it’s all GMO crap! Switch to organic unsweetened almond, cashew or hemp milk!
I don’t think you’ve looked at a carton of soy milk in recent years. They’re all nonGMO, as are tofu, tempeh, even most soy ice cream. Yes, most soy grown in the U.S. is GMO, but it’s mostly used for animal feed, soybean oil, and biofuel, not for soy milk, tofu, etc..
…and if you are depending on cow’s milk for calcium, you might as well be popping a supplement. That is how present-day cow’s milk gets its calcium. It is fortified.
Facts are in regarding Red Meat, it is not native to the Human Diet because it contains a chemical that’s unnatural to human biology, a sugar molecule called Neu5Gc from those meats gets fully incorporated into human tissue. The immune system then attacks that substance, leading to tissue inflammation and a higher lifetime risk of cancer.
The same process also could happen when people consume whole milk, certain cheeses and caviar, which consists of fish eggs. (Fish can produce Neu5Gc, but they store it in their eggs and not their fleshy muscles.)
Steve; A Study about Cancer among the Inuit
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.ca/2008/07/cancer-among-inuit.html?showComment=1215236520000
It is also common knowledge that a carnivorous people such as the Inuit, that Diabetes was unknown, until our government forced them off the land into government housing in villages sometimes hundreds of miles away from their traditional hunter-gatherer areas. The Anti-Fur Movement also destroyed their economic mainstay, diminishing their ability in acquiring traditional meats such as seal, polar bear etc. Once transitioned to wheat, sugar, HFCS in Soda’s their Lower Limb Amputation rate from Diabetic Neuropathy is 3 X that of Southerners. They are a perfect example of interference by know-it-alls re: traditional diets.
They are not a good example! They represent an edge case, living very different lives in a very different environment. Their average life span is 48, and so should not be considered as a model for most Western diseases which usually develop at a later age. Wheat, sugar and HFCS do not belong in a vegan diet – they do not belong in any diet! Refined food in an Innuit diet maks for a bad argument against veganism.
If anything, they are a good example of how Western cultures wreak havoc on indigenous cultures by spoiling their environment and feeding them processed food. Their existence adds nothing to the meat Vs plant debate. Same goes for the Massai. Leave them in peace!
Did you actually read the article along with his follow up article. He addresses those very issues.
Facts are in regarding Red Meat, it is not native to the Human Diet because it contains a chemical that’s unnatural to human biology, a sugar molecule called Neu5Gc from those meats gets fully incorporated into human tissue. The immune system then attacks that substance, leading to tissue inflammation and a higher lifetime risk of cancer.
The same process also could happen when people consume whole milk, certain cheeses and caviar, which consists of fish eggs. (Fish can produce Neu5Gc, but they store it in their eggs and not their fleshy muscles.) http://health.ucsd.edu/news/releases/Pages/2014-12-29-sugar-molecule-in-red-meat-linked-to-cancer.aspx http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/12/25/1417508112.abstract http://www.techtimes.com/articles/23745/20141230/neu5gc-sugar-molecule-in-red-meat-that-causes-cancer-in-humans.htm http://carta.anthropogeny.org/moca/topics/n-glycolylneuraminic-acid-expression http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2014/dec/29/red-meat-cancer-varki-neu5Gc-sialic/ http://health.ucsd.edu/news/releases/Pages/2014-12-29-sugar-molecule-in-red-meat-linked-to-cancer.aspx As for nutritional levels, I have been monitored by some of the best medical professionals in the country, and my nutrition levels are superior, and I m a vegan for over 8 years.
Sam –
The Vegetarian Health Institute, founder Trevor Justice, is a great place to get simple clear answers to everything that people get hung up on – protein, how to get more iron, the truth about soy, Vitamin D, B-12, dairy and replacements, everything – SIMPLE AND CLEAR. He uses a Dr. Michael Klaper as a source and you can go directly to his website I’m sure as well, although Trevor’s site contains about 40 hour long recordings of conversations with Dr. Klaper about every topic vegans would want to master. Rita Marie Loscalzo is also a solid source. You can google her. There are recordings of her as well on Trevor Justice’s site. I’m pursuing a certificate in Vegan mastery he offers because I need the CEU’s to renew my massage license but I think you can access his information very inexpensively if you don’t want to earn certification, or even review it for a short time for free.
Hello! I’ll start this by saying I’m a vegan and am not about to change that, so please refrain from telling me to eat animal products. I have a question for anyone who knows enough to answer it. This article suggests that it is possible to supplement a vegan diet to meet human nutritional needs, but does anyone know what is adequate? Do I need to be taking each supplement everyday or is a multivitamin that contains everything and then a supplement for DHA adequate? I’ve been a vegan for seven years and a vegetarian for twenty (I’m 25) and don’t seem to be experiencing any negative side effects, but I’d rather not wait until I do to fix it.
I just want to mention one thing. Watch out for vitamins. Many types of vitamins do not use the right type of vitamins (like your vitamin A should be beta-carotene). One doctor mentioned about patients. When he did a colonoscopy, that he saw vitamins that were still as intact as if the patient had just taken it. Don’t ever take vitamins from a pharmacy or grocery store. Everything that I have read in articles for years says that vitamins from grocery stores or even those from pharmacies are not any good. The type of magnesium in a lot of vitamins is no good. Watch out for this because a lot of the vegetables that you should get magnesium from, you probably do not. Farmers don’t like to pay extra money if they don’t have to, and the soil used over many years has been depleted of magnesium, but why should a farmer care about adding more into the soil if his plants look just as pretty without it. I bought magnesium malate (by itself) individually and other types that are also good are magnesium citrate, taurate, glycinate, chloride, and carbonate. The worst kinds are magnesium oxide, sulfate, glutamate and aspartate. Magnesium is very necessary for a lot of functions but for me the lack of it kept my body from absorbing calcium. It can also cause lower back pain (just the lower back) After I had a magnesium drip (sit for an hour and be attached to an IV while magnesium slowly went into my body) and the next day my lower back pain was gone. Magnesium is necessary for protein synthesis, muscle and nerve function, blood glucose control, and blood pressure regulation [1-3]. Magnesium is required for energy production, oxidative phosphorylation, and glycolysis. It contributes to the structural development of bone and is required for the synthesis of DNA, RNA, and the antioxidant glutathione. Magnesium also plays a role in the active transport of calcium and potassium ions across cell membranes, a process that is important to nerve impulse conduction, muscle contraction, and normal heart rhythm.
Brands I have found that I think are good include the Bluebonnet brand. Bluebonnet Super Earth Multi-Nutrient Supplement works very well on me except they have the wrong type of magnesium. I am very disappointed in that item but the other ingredients make up for it. I take a magnesium malate (also known as Malic Acid) supplement. It’s suppose to be the best for people who have fibromyalgia. One way to see how you body is doing is to have a hair analysis. Analytical Research Labs is the place my doctor sent the sample to and it looked very accurate. I knew my husband had lead poisoning and aluminum poison before he had the test done. The test said he did have toxic levels of those metals plus more. The vitamin and mineral content are really accurate because it can tell over a large period what is in your body and not just what is in you blood at that given moment. It will also tell you if you have any toxic metals in your body. One other way to see if your vitamin is working is to look at your toes. If the nails don’t look pretty than you need vitamins or go to the doctor. Nail abnormalities often indicate an underlying medical condition or a deficiency in certain vitamins and minerals. Warning signs to look out for include yellow nail discoloration, nail splitting, crumbling nails, nail cracking, black fingernails (if you hit your toes on something it can just be a blood blister) , ridges on nails, white spots on fingernails and if the nails start looking like a scoop (nails turning up on the edges) and if your toe nails get thick and white. When I forget to take my vitamins some of these occur. When I get back on my Bluebonnet vitamins all of these signs stop. That is one of the reasons I believe that the BB Super Earth MultiNutrient Supplement is a quality multivitamin and multi-mineral plus enzymes, amino acids and herbs, plus more. To find this brand you need to go to a health food store or on the internet. I just wanted to tell you about the vitamins and magnesium is one of the most important.
Sorry, I forgot something else. I believe that anyone would like to avoid GMO foods (foods where a vegetable (or whatever) is genetically crossed with the herbicide Roundup). Monsanto is the largest producer of GMO seeds (they also made DDT, PCB, Agent Orange, nuclear weapons, Polystyrene, Dioxins (most toxic products on the earth), Petroleum-Based Fertilizers (kills beneficial microorganisms, sterilizes the soil), Bovine Growth Hormone (rBGH), These make the cows fatter and us too. Unfortunately they can make the animals so heavy that some cannot standup, they are just to heavy for their legs to support. That definitely will help the animals, if you do not buy milk or buy milk with no antibiotics or hormones. Monsanto also makes the herbicide Roundup that is a Glyphosate. Glyphosate herbicides were quickly adopted by farmers enabling farmers to kill weeds without killing their crops. (GMOs) They can drench their crops with Roundup and it will kill the weeds but not the GMO crops. Scary! Now we have superweeds, that are resistant to Roundup. Roundup has almost succeeded is wiping out all the milkweed in the U.S. and it is the sole food of Monarch Butterflies. Needless to say they have almost wiped out the Monarch Butterflies as well. Monsanto also produces aspartame. (bad stuff) It gives, a large amount of people, splitting headaches, like me. GMO foods are nothing like crossbreeding, they will not solve world hunger, just as much pesticides are used on GMO foods as other crops. Monsanto’s GMO food is crossed with the herbicide Roundup, not any pesticides, so they have to be sprayed just like other regular crops, and yes they have been proven to be dangerous when tested by real independent studies, (not studies in the U.S. that are in one way or the other controlled by Monsanto), that is why the E.U., Russia, China, and Australia refuse to import them into their countries. You cannot believe what the F.D.A. says about GMOs. They say they are safe. Well of course they do, maybe because President Obama appointed Mr. Michael Taylor, former vice-president of Monsanto, as head counsel to the F.D.A.
Crops that are GMOs include soybeans, sugar beets, (if you want non-gmo sugar buy cane sugar) potatoes, corn, tomatoes, squash, golden rice, Rapeseed/Canola, salmon, animal feeds and cotton. This means that corn oil, canola oil, and cottonseed oil are GMOs. Cottonseed oil is even worse. Cotton is not considered a food crop so more toxic pesticides and the frequency of their use makes cottonseed oil very toxic. There are a few GMO crops made by other companies. These are where a vegetable or fruit is genetically crossed with another vegetable or fruit. I don’t know if these are really toxic but many scientist say they are. It’s just so obvious that those made by Monsanto (almost all of them) are dangerous since they are crossed with the most toxic herbicide there is. Almost all processed foods have GMO foods in them. Try to avoid processed foods. At this very moment there is no GMO wheat or oat crops. You just have to shop knowing what is a GMO food and you only know by reading ingredients. If it has something like corn or soy you can be sure that it is GMO, unless it says NON-GMO. If a manufacture makes a product without GMO ingredients, they will label it as such, because that’s what people are looking for. General Mills touts that the regular cheerios has no GMO. Well think about what that means. It means that all of their other products are GMOs.
I just wanted to mention the GMO crops so anyone vegan, vegetarian, or omnivores can avoid these crops. That is another way to be healthy.
In my opinion, the average meat eater would eat far more GMO soy etc than your average vegan. They indirectly eat it through all the animals and animal products that they eat!
Sam, here’s the thing – some deficiencies aren’t felt until you’re in really bad shape. The body can store some nutrients for a long time and is really good about preserving itself.
The liver is basically a nutrient “warehouse.” If you’re not getting enough from your diet, your liver (and to some extent your gut bacteria) have to make up the difference.
In some cases, if you’re deficient, it can cause serious health problems. You might also impair your immune system, e.g. decrease WBC count and specifically neutrophils.
For example, take choline. If you’re not eating egg yolks or animal liver, you do not have a significant dietary source of choline. If you happen to be one of the many, many people who are inefficient at producing your own choline, and *if* you become truly deficient in it, you’re going to suffer some nasty health problems eventually.
One of those problems, according to some research, is non-alcoholic fatty liver disease. But, it can also contribute to other problems, possibly elevated lipid levels (cholesterol). When you’re deficient in choline, the body taps folate reserves to make up the difference. Then, you run the risk of developing a folate deficiency, and you don’t want that either. The folate deficiency causes other problems…
In your 20s, you’ll probably be fine. After 30, your body doesn’t start bouncing back from the abuse (lack of nutrition) quite as easily.
It’s hard to say, without expensive testing, what you need in pill form, because that’s not how the body works.
To continue the choline example, your need for it depends on how much your body makes on its own, how efficient you are at methylation, and a few other things. Those other things are, in turn, dependent on other nutrients you get from, wait for it, diet.
…and that is just one nutrient. Pretty much all nutrients in your body work that way. Their need depends on several factors, and many nutrients are synergistic with, or antagonistic to, other nutrients.
So, it really *starts* with diet. You *can* supplement if you confirm a deficiency in something, but you also need to know why you’re deficient so you can correct that deficiency with food, if possible. Food is an uncomplicated solution. Supplements are a complex engineered solution that can sometimes cause more problems than they solve.
Throwing pills at a deficiency that’s easily made up with food is also kind of nonsensical, IMO, because of the logistics of micromanaging single/isolated nutrients. In other words, you can’t shoe-horn supplements into a dietary framework that’s lacking the fundamentals, like animal protein. Well, you can, technically, but it’s probably not a great idea.
I know this isn’t what you want to hear, but biology is pretty complex and that’s just the way it is.
Actually, there are many common plant-based foods that are good sources of choline: bananas, oranges, oats, wheat, nuts, tofu, apples, dates…and many more. If one consumes a wide range of plant foods, one is assured of getting plenty of choline.
Folate deficiency is extremely unlikely for individuals on a plant-based diet, because it’s found in abundance in legumes, greens, and seeds. According to the recent EPIC-Oxford study, vegans have higher circulating levels of folate than either vegetarians or omnivores.
Oi. This is the difference between someone who knows what they’re talking about and someone who’s just talking out their ass because they are trying to shoehorn a diet into a moral/philosophical framework.
I really don’t want to hammer on anyone’s personal lifestyle choices. And, at the same time, there are facts that can’t be ignored – like the fact that fruits and vegetables do not contain significant amounts of choline per 100g.
I eat a LOT of veggies every day. Vegetarians are often surprised by the amount of foliage I eat. 6-8 cups of veggies a lot. On paper, I get a lot of folate – more than should be necessary. And, while a randomized double-blind study is cool and all, when I did an RBC micronutrient analysis on my own blood, both folate and choline was low.
Please don’t spread your confusions about dietary sufficiency. It really is complex. I promise. I’m not just making this up.
Choline sufficiency is also not strictly diet-dependent. You can be deficient in nutrients due to poor absorption, altered gut ecology, but also because of impaired methylation and stress.
If you are truly deficient in choline, and you’re looking for nutrient-dense options for repletion, liver and egg yolks are, by far, the highest (and most practical).
So, while I’m not against people eating fruits and vegetables, let’s be honest. They’re poor sources of choline. Yes, there are minuscule amounts of the nutrient in there, but you don’t typically eat them if you’re concerned about maintaining adequate dietary intake (if that’s really a concern for you) for the same reasons you wouldn’t eat watermelon for iron if you’re anemic (and then tell people that watermelon has iron in it so don’t worry about iron intake).
If you’re not concerned about your health, that’s fine. No one is holding a gun to anybody’s head here. But, if you are, I think people really need to put down their philosophical guns and adopt a policy of reason and practicality.
Interesting. I’ve been a vegan my entire life (I’m 43), and on your recommendation just had an RBC micronutrient analysis done on my blood. Both folate and choline were fine. In fact, everything was fine. If you want, I could post the complete lab results along with my doctor’s positive comments.
Hey if you’re happy with your diet, have at it. I’m just relaying my personal experience.
It is interesting that you received your lab results back so quickly.
SpectraCell holds some kind of patent on their micronutrient testing, and my experience is that it takes at least 3 weeks to get the results back. So, even if you took the test the same day I posted my reply, you’d probably still be waiting for results.
So, I guess that’s really impressive speed on the analysis, given that the lab somehow got the test done in under 3 weeks, you were able to schedule a followup with your doctor, he was able to comment on your labs, and you have the sheet ready to upload.
huh. Maybe I need to switch doctors and get in on this fast-track lab work.
Sorry, but if you’re insinuating that I’m lying you are way out of line. The lab results took roughly 2 weeks. My insurance is Kaiser, and they posted my results online via their (password protected) website. I had no reason to question the amount of time it took to get the results, and frankly the few days difference that you’re making such a big deal about seems insignificant and petty.
Since it seems that you are more interested in starting arguments than having a serious discussion I have no further interest in corresponding with you. Please troll somewhere else.
Wow, you are something else, assuming that I’m “shoehorning a diet into a moral/philosophical framework.” As it happens, I went 100% plant-based over a decade ago for health reasons. It was either that or be put on a statin, which my internist recommended. My health improved substantially in many respects as a result of going plant-based, and I haven’t for a moment regretted my decision. Since that time, I have learned more about animal agriculture and its inhumane practices both toward animals and human workers as well as its negative effects on the environment, all of which further confirm my decision.
I also don’t appreciate being told I’m “talking out my ass” regarding nutrition. I’ve taken numerous college-level nutrition courses and have completed Cornell’s certificate program in plant-based nutrition. I’ve read over a hundred books on the subject and participated in nutrition conferences and seminars.
Sure, you can get more iron from beef and more choline from an egg than from any one plant food, but so what? The negatives from consuming them outweigh the positives. You can get all you need of those nutrients and others, and in a more healthful manner, by consuming a wide variety of unprocessed plant foods.
Your condescending attitude, not only to me, but also to Lisa Z, is astounding and counterproductive to your aim, which I gather is to convince others of your own questionable opinions.
B-12 is the only vitamin that’s essential for vegans to take. It’s also good to take vegan D3 if your lifestyle or location don’t permit adequate daily sun exposure. Vegan algae-based DHA/EPA supplementation may be a good idea, but you can also increase the body’s conversion of plant-based omega-3s (from sources such as ground flax seed and walnuts) by keeping your intake of omega-6s minimal. Other than those, a well-balanced, varied plant-based diet provides everything you need in abundance. It’s not a good idea to take supplemental Vitamin A or folate anyway. Best wishes to you!
I think the final moral source is your own commitment to a moral life, not a book even if it is called the Bible. Look what is being done in the name of Koran lately. They find justification for their behavior as well.
No matter what the Bible says the first time you see a cow defecating in fear as he approachs slaughter and then being hacked into pieces while still alive and hanging from a hook inserted in his flesh you’d probably have trouble swallowing it. And if you don’t care about cows did you know that about 80% of antibiotics are sold to be injected into chickens and livestock? What did the Bible say about that? It’s all about the money and you are the sucker.
Not all animals are treated that way. It’s amazing how vegans try to shame omnivores by telling us we are cruel to animals. I’ve actually met the chickens we will be eating later this year. They roam around a large property and eat at their leisure. They are well treated and humanely killed. I’ve also met the pig we will be consuming later this year. Same story. No antibiotics, no hanging from a hook, etc. And it’s not at all about the money. I could eat a lot cheaper if I gave up my expensive, ethically raised meat. But I follow the science and eat for health.
I’m not sure I understand your point there.
You seem to be suggesting that the chickens won’t mind being killed (whilst still less than half way through their natural lives) because those shortened lives are in nice surroundings.
Is that your point or have I misunderstood?
If it is your point then I’m curious about what you would say if another species ever starts doing that to you and your family.
Presumably if you’re happy with the principle of it (for the chickens) then you would be equally happy to practice what you preach should you’re kids ever be on the receiving end of the same thing??
Otherwise you’d be a hypocrite and I’m sure that’s not what you intended.
Just wondered if you could clarify. Thanks
You do know that those chickens would never have experienced life at all, if they had not been grown for meat? Would they rather have not lived at all, or have lived a happy life and come to a humane end?Nobody can really answer these questions, but we do the best we can.
Not only EPA and DHA (long-chain unsaturated fatty acids), but medium-chain *saturated fatty acids* are just as important for optimum health.
These are available from plant sources but *only* tropical ones.
The best is coconut (most easily obtained as cold-pressed oil), but most other tropical edible nuts and seeds (again, the cold-pressed oils from them) are also excellent.
At high latitudes – temperate through to arctic – nuts or seeds contain no fatty acids beyond mono-unsaturated.
In these regions people once had no choice but to eat meat to stay healthy.
What vegetarians and vegans don’t realize is that your brain needs certain protein to remain balanced. Yes, you can get away with eating fruits and veggies most of the time but at least once a week you should be eating red meat at a meal. Red meat contains a protein not found in fish, chicken, beans etc… That the brain needs this to function properly. Many vegans can become air headed or loopy if they choose not to realize this. Also, a child should NEVER be raised on a vegan/veg diet. They are too young and it WILL hurt their development.
Mark, can you please name that “certain protein”? Amino acids are the building blocks of protein, and all the essential amino acids (those that aren’t produced by the body) are available in abundance in plant foods.
Regarding your opinion on children being raised vegan or vegetarian: How many vegan children do you know? I know about a hundred, as well as young adults who’ve been vegan since birth. They are, if anything, healthier than most. My ten-year-old, vegan all her life, is bright, athletic, and never misses school. “Air-headed and loopy”? Not at all. She’s never needed an antibiotic and is mystified by the illnesses her classmates get. Strep, diarrhea, throwing up…These are not part of her experience, although, going to public school, she’s exposed to all the bugs that go around. Her omnivorous pediatrician says my daughter is one of her healthiest patients and tells me to make sure she “just keeps doing whatever she’s doing.”
You’re not going to convince a die hard meat eater to stop eating meat, and meat eaters you’re not going to convince the vegan or vegetarian to start eating meat. Granted I haven’t gone through all the comments, but from what I’ve seen on here there is a futile back-and-forth going on. We need to do what works for our bodies. For some people it just does not work to eat vegan, and for some people it doesn’t work to eat meat. That doesn’t mean that either person is wrong. I get so tired of people telling me what I should put in my body, and why. Just the other day I was sharing some information with women who have PCOS, and a vegan woman spent forever trying to convince me to live on vegetables, starchy vegetables, and fruit. I tried to explain to her that I’m eating in a way that lowers my blood sugar, and that high amounts of starchy vegetables, and fruits take my blood sugar up too high. I told her that when I ate a mainly plant-based diet, but had too much fortunate my blood sugars were almost 300. She kept on me for about an hour trying to get me to change. Telling me if I just tried it I would see she was right. I was polite, but I wanted to tell her off, and say what part of it made my blood sugars go up to 300 do you not get lady? The irony of the whole situation: this woman wasted so much time trying to convince me that her way was best, and my whole post was information on different ways of eating including vegan, vegetarian, ketogenic, Paleo, clean eating and plant-based diet, and I was encouraging people to do what works specifically for them. It’s okay to educate someone but then let it go. If you have a moral objection to eating meat, or if you feel it’s healthier that’s your business. I like to eat grass fed/free range meat raised by my local farmer, and I’m not going to change my mind about that. That doesn’t mean that I think you are wrong for not eating meat, but that means I don’t want you pressuring me.
Thank you, I agree. I also have PCOS and additionally am histamine intolerant, so my food choices are quite limited. I can’t eat vegetarian or vegan; its simply not possible for my health. Yet in forums where I am trying to get nutritional information I am often accosted by vegans insisting that they know my health issues better….somehow.
Preaching to people on your own moral issues with animal products approaches religious fervor with some. I don’t need converting, I know what sort of foods my body can digest.
There is a big difference between people who avoid eating meat and people who actually eat plants.
The more plants a person eats, the healthier that person is. People who eat exclusively plants are the healthiest by far. There is need for SUPPLEMENTS of vitamin B12 for vegans. Some people argue for EPA/DHEA supplements too – I take them – and vitamin D supplements should probably be taken by everyone in the northern hemisphere in the fall and winter.
I agree that just being a vegetarian or a vegan is not good enough to insure nutritional superiority. For that a person must eat a plant based diet and take appropriate supplements.
I was fat all my life as a kid I was fat my life sucked out loud I started cut out the meat and the wheat and rice and corn I have got rid of a 163 lbs. I am in better shape of my life you have to go with what works
You realise cutting out the wheat was probably the main factor there? Meat, assuming its not processed crap, and eaten in moderation wouldn’t cause you to gain wait.
Really? I’m a vegan of ideal weight (according to my doctor) and I consume large quantities of wheat.
What annoys me is how much hate there is towards vegans. Not all vegans are stuck up jerks trying to push their beliefs on you, it’s not a religion. It’s just not wanting to eat something or use certain products. You don’t need to justify your choices or get defensive because it has nothing to do with you. There’s radical people in every controversial topic, but not all of us are like that. Even other vegans try to tell me I’m not being vegan “the right way” and I roll my eyes. Just do whatever it is that makes you happy and feel good and leave me to my vegetables and fruits and the occasional package of oreos haha
I’m a bit of an extremist vegan sometimes but it is because I care deeply about the animals, and I think most vegans are similar.
Imagine you lived in a world where child prostitution was normalized as part of culture and when you enter a cafe or restaurant men (including your friends) would order little girls to rape. That’s how I feel when I see people eating meat, and I think that’s how most vegans feel as well.
Eating meat = raping little girls?
Wow, sorry you feel that way.
Morally, rape is wrong and eating animals is OK. Check the number one source of guidance on morality issues- the Bible.
Mentally, many animals are at the same level mentally as small children. Many Vegans/Vegetarians such as myself are aware of this and it makes the idea of manipulating and killing them just that much less attractive. I’m sure you don’t see it that way since, as most of us were, you were conditioned not to see animals as sentient, thoughtfull and emotional beings. It isn’t surprising that you feel this way.
Animals aren’t small children. That’s straight-up anthropomorphizing. Animals in the wild kill other animals. There’s no lack of respect there. It’s just what they do.
(Many) humans do the same thing. I love animals, and it’s not true that I was never taught to see animals as emotional creatures.
At the same time, there’s a huge difference between a dog and a cow, and I’m thankful for the cow’s life, since it converts low calorie nutrition into high calorie nutrition for me.
You could just as easily argue that the animal that gives its life to you as food is the most prized and respected of all animals.
“In Germany, a border collie named Rico can recognize over 200 different objects and has an IQ comparable to a 3-year-old child.”
I’m not making this up, this is the result of scientific research.
Is there something wrong with comparing animals to humans? Have you never been guilty of comparing humans to animals? Probably not when it was convenient to do so.
Not all animals kill other animals, and when they do, it’s usually because they are hungry and it’s a matter of survival. They do not have the options that we have.
Yes, there are some differences between a dog and a cow – on a mental level that may be just a matter of a few IQ points, the same goes for humans. We are not all on the same level intellectually.
“…the animal that gives it’s life to you…” ??? Are you sure about that? Because I’m pretty sure that it’s life was taken, by us, without the animal’s consent.
Rather touching concept, though.
Read more : http://www.ehow.com/info_8221852_animals-iq.html
Oi. I’ll pretend you didn’t just post a link to eHow (hardly an authoritative source of information). Demand Media (which owns eHow) has pretty wonky editorial standards. I know. I’ve done contracted work with them in the past.
Anyhow, here’s another take on it, written by a vegetarian:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Vegetarian-Myth-Justice-Sustainability/dp/1604860804
I don’t really want to go back and forth about mythological flaws in studies that equivocate dogs with humans. Let’s just agree to disagree on that part.
Stephen, interesting you consider Fertilization as RAPE! Hen’s can lay as many eggs as they want without a Horny Rooster. But if we want chicks, well, in your view the rapist rooster has to be involved, as cows only conceive when in heat. Natural cycles of conception R only Rape in the mind of an AR’st Vegan.
I have found that most extreme vegans tend to not have much practical experience with animals other than as pets.
And usually people who throw the term rape around as a descriptor for unrelated things…such as food….tend to have no experience as a victim of rape. Tasteless metaphor, Stephen
As a survivor of childhood rape, thank you for this.
It sounds like you have a healthy viewpoint. I respect that. I’m a former vegan. I must say that I have come to despise the vegan health cult and it’s leaders — e.g., T. Colin Campbell, Esselstein, McDougall, Ornish, etc. The cult believes that humans evolved as plant eaters and that animal consumption in any amount proportionally increases your chance of death and disease. Since I have started reading outside sources, I have come to believe that they are scientifically unsound, and, actually, fraudsters. The worst is Campbell. His epidemiological “grand prix” (how they love to quote Jane Brody on that), the China Study, is the house of cards on which all their so-called science is based.
I’m willing to be you got tired of dealing with the inconveniences to the Vegan lifestyle and had no trouble finding adequate excuses to revert back to eating meat. Yes, some Vegans are fanatical. Some meat-eaters are fanatical Some Christians are fanatical. Some football fans are fanatical. You find that everywhere. That doesn’t make all religion or sports wrong. And I’m willing to bet that that “so-called” science was much more accurate than you care to acknowledge.
If it didn’t work for you I am sorry – but taking your anger out on livesaving doctors rather than taking responsibility for your own decisions is pathetic.
Calling Esselstyn and Ornish cult leaders is actually offensive considering the fact they are esteemed published scientists with a long and well defined history of saving peoples lives through dietary and other interventions. They have been advancing the idea of diet as a treatment protocol for decades.
And as for the China Study – it certainly is not perfect – as no study is – but it represents the work of hundreds of scientists and many universities from all over the world. It is not the single voice of Colin Campbell.
Or did Denise Minger tell you otherwise?
Right on.
that’s what i say too
Why is it that vegans blast everyone who writes an article as being a pawn for the dairy and meat industry? Do you realize how entirely insulting and inane that is? It gets old. Would you like it if we treated you like a pawn for the grain industry or the soy industry? Which does enough of its own damage, from the sounds of things….
just a note on B12…. over 50’s in the USA are recommended to start taking a synthetic supplement as part of their normal diet, whether they eat a lot of meat, a little meat, or no meat at all… i am 31, a vegan, and i take this supplement also, as well as using other foods fortified with calcium, iron, and B12, so your argument about not being able to get these vitamins is pretty weak
I agree with you David.
I take a product called ‘Vegan Safe B12′ along with other supplements to fill the void.
There are 5 “Blue Zones” in the world. These zones define the longest lived people on our planet. Only 1 of these communities are vegetarian and 4 eat meat . just saying!
Actually most are vegetarian and some eat fish (mostly sardines)
Actually the Sardinians diet is the only full vegetarian blue zone, the rest are semi vegetarian meaning they consume meat but there diet is still built around veggies, the Okinawan diet is a perfect example of semi vegetarianism as they eat mainly veggies but they do eat small amounts of fish and squid daily and they also eat pork as delicacy of sorts on ocasion and if you look at another blue zone which is in Costa Rica they consume beef, chicken and eggs every day and even have a high consumtion of fried food such as plaintains and eggs but they eat alot veggies to round it all out. The one thing all these blue zone diets have in common is the high consumtion of legumes
I just wanted to clarify the Costa Rican diet. We don’t really eat a lot of vegetables. Most of our diet is starch-based, and we love to fry our food. You can do a google images search for “gallo pinto costa rica” and “casado costa rica” to see what our main breakfast and lunch/dinner dishes are. The Blue Zone in Nicoya eats the same diet as the rest of us do throughout Costa Rica. It is thought that perhaps the reason for the Blue Zone in Nicoya is actually because of the mineral-rich water, since their diet isn’t any different than the rest of CR.
The people in the Loma Linda community who were profiled in Blue Zones were all vegan or vegetarian, including Ellsworth Wareham, the heart surgeon in his mid-nineties who had been vegan for thirty years. I recently read an update on him; he’s now 100 and still going strong as a vegan.
Your information is incorrect. Sardinians eat more meat then all the other blue zone groups, namely pork. I’m not sure if any of them are fully vegetarian and certainly not vegan. I also just recently read someone who said they were from Sardinia, and they had this to say, which I was surprised by and it makes me want to visit there myself and find out what’s actually true “The whole low on meat aspect is actually pretty inaccurate. I’m Sardinian and there wasn’t a single day we didn’t have meat, and in central Sardinia it is normal to eat whole roasted bores at least once a week. Fatty meats are essential for a healthy nervous system. Also, we don’t eat much pasta. That’s an Italian thing — and we aren’t Italian. Grain products such as breads and pasta cause inflammation of the arteries which leads to heart disease. Cholesterol is a must in a diet and is needed to repair such damage, but when eaten in conjunction with damaging grains, the cholesterol keeps piling on to fix the damage causing clogging of the arteries. Also, the sudden blood sugar spike pushes cholesterol into the fat cells which otherwise would be used to maintain the brain and nerve functions. Seafood is also a big part of the diet on the coast as well as local wild plants and fruits. But you won’t see a meal where chicken, or pork, or beef, or donkey, or horse isn’t on the menu.”
I read that they are a frugal people, making simplistic meals and having a fun perspective of the world, time having less meaning and stress being rare.
I honestly think diet has less and less to do with health, in comparison to mental health. If you’re wanted and loved or stubborn, you’ll live longer. Which is why all those cultures have family, camaraderie and usefulness no matter the age in common.
Unwanted people die sooner regardless of a good diet. Being apart of a community and being social.
The mind has a lot of power, for all we know many of the effects of any diet might be placebo considering placebo can have an effect on actual health, not just feeling better.
On the subject of diet though, I think any diet that requires supplements is not optimal.
But like I said, I think the brain has a lot more power on health then food does, considering it controls all the signals that make us healthy, or unhealthy including cortisol, insulin etc.
To add, because I couldn’t find the edit button, another Sardinan said this “To the man who claims he’s Sardinian. I am Sardinian, born and raised and I cannot relate with any of the statements you made. No bread or pasta? We’re not italian??? LOL So when exactly did Sardinians seperate from Italy? Why didn’t they send me a letter? Nobody told me. I’ve been living a lie for 63 yrs, wow. All this time thinking I’m italian and yet the whole time I wasn’t. Why did they teach us italian in school, it was a mandatory class. We had to learn Sardo and italian. How peculiar. Pistoccu, Pane Carasau, Su Coccoi, these popular and ancient sardinian breads that I’ve been eating since birth must have been a figment of my imagination. I can’t really remember eating donkey or horse, mostly porccedu, lamb, and fish, even lumachi. I have family in the north and I reside in the south, yet we seem to eat more or less the same things, differing slightly. Very bizzare.”
Which still suggests that being vegetarian is not a thing there. But it does pose confusion on the actual diets. I would love to visit there and see it for myself.
Vixxi, the tiny Sardinian community with unusual longevity that was profiled in Blue Zones is not reflective of Sardinia as a whole. It is a tiny mountainous community where even fish consumption is rare. They are not vegan but are nearly vegetarian. Read the book; I think you’ll find it very interesting.
I agree with you that diet is not the entire reason some people live longer. You touch on something very important there. The people in all the Blue Zones are an active, appreciated part of their communities into their 90s and beyond. And they are physically active all their lives., not by going to a gym, but by climbing mountains, farming, etc. However, the dietary factors common to all the tiny Blue Zone communities is that they eat mostly whole foods, including lots of beans, whole grains and vegetables, and not a whole lot in the way of animal protein.
(They’re probably eating boars, not bores, although I do understand the temptation.)
WRONG!!!!
Except for the Sardinian diet, the majority of food consumed is derived from plants:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/12/Vendiagram.gif
My previous post was directed to Kevin
Can you please at some point comment on this new alleged vegan D3? I’m withholding judgment about whether it is truly D3, but my attempts to google it only yielded articles questioning whether it was truly vegan.
The vegan D3 comes from lichen and is approved by the vegan society. Here is a paper providing evidence that some varieties of lichen produce D3
http://lup.lub.lu.se/luur/download?func=downloadFile&recordOId=133512&fileOId=624375
Flamed. My position is both flexible and examined sufficiently to be unshakable! On the one hand the decision will more and more be taken out of the hands of individuals as the price of meat continues to go up and the big new money invests in meat replacements. Meat is simply unsustainable on so many levels and the way information travels now the back door secrets that kept it looking clean are out of the bag. But I just don’t think most people who defend it are aware. You can still easily avoid knowing about the industry. If you do learn about it there is no way you can’t begin to try to make the switch. This country runs on the endless silent scream of animal abuse – millions of sentient creatures a day suffering and being tortured silently and without pause or recourse. It’s interesting – you can see by the 1000 comments here it is the hottest topic around. I feel hopeful. Slightly. In the meantime I also hope for the end of mankind!
You hope for the end of mankind? Humans are sentient beings too. To hope for the end of mankind is to hope for the end of billions of sentient beings.
Nice comment Ramon. As always vegans consider the whole and meat eaters talk about themselves. For people eating McDonalds Paleo is a great advance but it’s largely a money making concept for a few of it’s promoters. Vegetarian, or preferably vegan, eating is conceptually worlds ahead as it takes into account the economic and spiritual whole and not just the needs and preferences of the individual. This is the key fact that people who eat meat simply cannot wrap their heads around. Their comments are always about “I”. It’s why there is no ability to dialogue.
I absolutely agree Erica.. and you will likely only get flamed for such comments as anything else will force a person to look in the mirror and truly see their choices for the darkness they represent. Most do not realize it was choice made for them while they were infants and to awaken would mean to admit wrong and to do the same onto their parents.. Interestingly, it is of no shame to be caught up in the status quo when information was harder to discern, but today, such is NOT the case.
and btw..dropping any comments here will increase your spam content dramatically.. if you enter a real eddress.
There were no hunter gatherer vegetarians.
Are we to believe the musing of a man who eats the same, or tries to eat the same diet as our ancestors did over 5000 years ago? Despite all the science humankind has uncovered, technological advances and the whole wealth of food we have available today he still thinks a caveman diet is optimal? Does he not realise that caveman had no nutritional knowledge at all and simple scavenged around and pretty much ate whatever he could find? Which was by the way mostly a whole foods plant based diet with little meat if he could get his hands on it. Personally I prefer to look to the future not the past for my dietary needs. I have been vegan for 20 years, vego before that and have never broken a bone or been to the doctors or had any health issues whatsoever. My eyes are perfect, blood test showed no deficiencies so to say that vegans are deficient in all these nutrients and minerals is inaccurate. In the interests of full disclosure, I do take B12 and D, not that I was deficient as I wasn’t, more of a precautionary top up and its so cheap.
Then stop taking B12 and D if you are so healthy.
I have been eating bacon and eggs every morning for breakfast for over 30 years straight. All my bloodwork shows the body of a much younger man. I’ve never been sick or gone to the doctor for health issues. Nor broken any bones.
By the way, evolution does not work the way you seem to think.
No kidding. Please explain to us how Evolution works.
animals around the world have no knowledge of nutition (as per our hunter gatherers) yet they eat what is optimal for their survival?? You think modern processed foods are superior to old fashioned non-processed foods?
Ramon didn’t say anything about processed foods, Kevin. I’m not sure where that came from. And hunter gatherers ate what they were able to find, which varied from one region to another. They didn’t (and many couldn’t) in some magical way eat what would be optimal. Evolution only cares that a species stay alive long enough to procreate, not that it live a long life.
Congratulations on your good health and sensible outlook.
ANY diet can be missing crucial macro and micronutrients. I wish folks that practice carnism would also write articles on the negative health benefits of animal by-products and how a carnivorous diet also leaves a lot to be explored. There are always articles arguing one way or the other, but what everyone should be arguing for is better education on what our bodies need and not some stupid social tug-a-war over personal choices and lifestyles. There are tons of resources out there about the proper way to live vegetarian and vegan lifestyles, but not too many on how to eat animal by-procucts in a proper way aka not over doing meat consumption because it is just as harmful to have too much of certain nutrients as it is to have too little.
Totally agree that it doesn’t matter what diet you eat just as long as you don’t get too little or too much of the nutrients. I think a vegetarian or vegan diet is the way to go as it’s ethical but you have to do your research and not just cut out meat products. Organic foods also have more nutrients than non-organic so that has to be taken into consideration. Cronometer.com is a great website to measure the nutrients you are eating and is based on the best research out there – not all research is perfect yet but it is a good guide to give you an idea.
Wow — I have been vegan over 25 years. Raised three healthy kids to adulthood, (all still vegan) nursed them a total of 8 years. At every stage, they were healthier then any of their non-vegan peers. They have never had antibiotics, never broken any bones, They are intelligent, athletic and kind!
But what I want people to know is this: I had health challenges along the way — for example, at one point, for almost a year, I developed chronic fatigue, no surprise my first concern was that it was because I was vegan…but I was simply not willing to consider giving that up, so I searched for other things to try — it turned out, I had a root canal from years ago, that had failed. Thankfully a good dentist helped me figure it out, and once it was all cleaned up, I fully recovered.
So glad that I did not give up my healthy vegan diet mistakenly!
I
I have eaten meat for 58 years and have also enjoyed perfect health. No antibiotics etc! well done.
Was that sarcasm I sensed? If so, you really ought to look back on that comment. Her point was that you can be just as healthy, while also being ethical, with a vegan diet. Of course, the slight implication that a vegan diet is superior to a normal diet health wise is silly, but the rest is perfectly logical.
Kevin, funny how vegans care so much about the planet eh? meat eaters can rejoice as the world revolves around themselves… If a meat eater actually considered that animals have consciousness, considered his own jaw chews and grinds side to side rather than snapping up and down, considered the impact of the meat industry on our environment and finally considered anything beyond “I”, just perhaps they wouldn’t write a farcical article like this to justify and console other meat eaters into a belief that actually it’s ok. To Mr Grayman “I eat bacon and eggs every day”. Why not use the less poetic approach? remove the camouflage and absorb the fact you’ve been eating slices of slaughtered pig corpse, the unfertilized chicken embryos were probably free range so you can feel better about that right?
“unfertilized chicken embryos”
You do realize that there are no chicken embryos in unfertilized eggs, right?
This may in itself be a valid reply Prometheus68. However it does not address the point in question and adds nothing of real value. You do realize that your pedanticism “speaks volume”, right?
This is true… they are actually a hen’s menses.
Been to the Dr lately? Had the ol’ cholesterol checked?
Angela, thank you for sharing your experiences, which have been similar to mine. My two older children, raised vegetarian, were healthier than most of their peers, and my youngest, vegan since conception, at age ten has been even healthier than her siblings were. No antibiotics, no stomach issues (throwing up? what’s that?), never misses school. It’s not genetic, as my husband and I were both frequently sick as kids.
We can all argue the nutritional science until we’re blue in the face, there are studies that obviously show benefits of living an animal or plant based diet either way.
The one fact that you can’t ignore is that a living being must be bred, fed and intentionally kept alive in order to kill it, how would you like it if your execution had been planned before you were born.
I turned Vegan a couple of weeks ago after becoming fully aware of the inhumane and unfair suffering that we put on animals not to mention the environmental damage that is now being caused by animal agriculture and population increase.
Whether the nutritional science is for or against it, we as fellow species on this planet with finite resources will need to change our eating habits in the years to come to avoid the environmental costs that future generations will have to bare.
In my mind my selfish reasons for following an animal based diet are not justification enough anymore to be part of the torment, torture and environmental damage.
It’s worth finding a way to get all that we need from plants.
You may want to watch these documentaries, as they may help you to take a different look at your decisions:
Didn’t know links worked here. Thanks for posting that
Hopefully one day soon, synthetic meat can be produced and bypassing the biologically expensive requirements of growing everything else present day livestock requires, would be a great benefit to everyone.
Animals would not need to be farmed for their meat. The resources used to grow the meat would be used more efficiently. There would be no moral or ethical dilemma. We would all eat to satiation and live long, fruitful and happy productive lives.
One day…
I went vegan for a year a few years back. Decided I would eat vegan from Jan. 1st to Dec. 31st, and just see how I felt. I am a woman in my early 60s now. Anyway, I researched for months everything I needed to know about being vegan – prior to starting – and felt very comfortable with the eating changes I would be making. My observations are this: I wasn’t as tired on the vegan diet, I actually spent less money on food on the vegan diet, and overall I think it was okay. There were two problems I, personally, had with it. First off, I had tremendous cravings for meat, eggs, milk, dairy. These were easy to deal with, for the most part….but it did bother me. However, more importantly – again, in my opinion – I was sick constantly. And I mean constantly – colds, flu, sinus infections, bronchitis, more colds and upper respiratory infections, and then more colds and flu. I was sick more that one year than the previous 10 years combined. So….I quit. And, have only been sick once since. I added back meat, eggs, cheese, milk, yogurt to my diet. Overall, I learned a ton being vegan – and believe it or not – I would recommend it to anyone to try for at least one year. For me, it just didn’t work. I learned so much though – and I still eat many of the new dishes I learned to make/cook when I was vegan.
With respect, and thank you for a thoughtful discourse, but you were not experiencing sickness, you were experiencing your body ridding itself of a lifetime of toxins.
Every acidic body experiences this, the severity of which depending on the level of toxicity. Tis a shame you gave up without better understanding the internal cellular processes. You were getting close! To be alkaline is the key to health.
How, then, does your “detox” hypothesis explain Martha’s remission after she reintroduced animal products back in her diet?
As for your opinion that she should have continued this diet in spite of the ill-effects it was having on her, the following Einstein quote comes to mind: “Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”
It you re-read my comment without bias or without need to protect that which you are used to, the answer is clear:
Once the body starts to detox, and STARTS is the key here, the exiting toxins will manifest in what mainstream would identify as dis-ease. After many decades of poor health decisions, do you expect any body to shed a lifetime of ills quickly?
A return to the status quo simply shutdown the detox process, that is why dis-ease disappeared. It is very elementary once you see it.
And make no mistake, proper nutrition is only one part of a multi-faceted approach to true detox.
I have a son who was being fed a healthy vegan diet for the first 2 and 1/2 years of his life. I let my son experience chronic colds, sinus infections, bronchitis and eczema without me even realizing that it might be extreme nutritional deficiencies causing this.
And yeah, I am completely sure now, that it wasn’t detox because that poor child of mine had no previous ‘lifetime of toxins’ period since he was fed such an excellent diet since childbirth.
He is 6 years old now and he is still calcium, magnesium, phosphorus, zinc and B6 and B12 deficient! Thankfully, he is not so sick like he used to be anymore.
With my daughther I decided to take a different path and feed her liberal amount of animal products, especially the ones that come from our own family farming.
Luckily my daughter is stronger, taller and calmer than my son and what is more important is that she is rarely sick. How does that make sense with this crazy detox idea?
let me guess: fully vaccinated, surrounded by electricity, covered in sun-block, fed non-organic food.
Kids these days barely stand a chance on being healthy with the extent of the lack of knowledge coupled with the zealous need of everyone to defend the status quo.
I was vegan for first 4 years of my life and extremely HEALTHY. For various reasons I then transitioned to ovo lacto vegetarian and am now eating primarily vegan again and couldn’t be happier than the couple of years where I did introduce more animal products into my diet.
hey Drew, since you’re making us BC boys look bad with your comments here, maybe it’s better to back up what you say with some scientific references. Open the door for us, don’t ask to blindly trust a random dude on the internet. Nothing of what you say resonates with me on any level, not a single word; it all sounds like horse sh*t. So if you want to convince anyone of your hypotheses, send us some info (keep the naturalnews, realfarmacy, mercola, etc. to yourself).
If you have enough energy to comment here, you hopefully have enough energy to go this extra step. Otherwise just keep your comments to yourself next time.
Geez whiz Gerald, given your thoughtful, kind and polite nature, i am sure i will take the time to help you.
And what’s more, i am sure i will filter ALL my sources to fit to a mainstream library, where all the nonsense lives.
At least my profile is public. Feel free to come to my wall and ask direct, polite and thought-out questions.
As for the off-hands rude comments, you only reflect your own bias and negativity with such displays. Cheers.
EXACTLY what I wanted to say. Oh and yes, we should totally toss vaccs out the window because you know, who the HELL wants to protect their children from diseases that killed and harmed so many? Why protect our children from the sun and how dare we feed them wholesome animal AND vegetable foods? —– seriously Drew, you are probably a really nice guy but I think you read too much pseudo-science on the interwebss.
I agree with Drew. You were detoxing.
Liver cells have a lifespan of approximately 150 days. How can somebody have these “detox” symptoms for an entire year?
Liver cells can regenerate.
the cravings for milk and cheese are because cows milk has a chemical in it that acts as an addiction for the calf, making it want to suckle as much as possible… you get the same effect on the human body, EXCEPT THAT YOU’RE NOT A CALF
Should totally Detox within 7 days, heavy metals within 3 month’s, 12 months to detox? we change out our entire body’s immune system, blood, not to mention the vast intakes of water/fluids, and shedding of skin, 6 months your hardly the same you, detoxing for a year that is In-sain,
I became extremely sick as well on a vegan diet, mostly with severe chronic fatigue and depression. Considering Blood Type, it was not for me. I now eat a mostly vegetarian diet and some animals that are ethically raised and treated. I realized there is a balance that needs to happen and I got back in touch a bit with the food chain and how the universe really works. Besides that, some of the vegans I know are some of the most extreme personality types, obsessive, and condescending types I’ve ever met and I frankly got tired of listening to them all the time. I get veganism, I do. But it didn’t work for me and I hate how they look down on everyone who eats a little animal protein here and there or gives up on the vegan diet because it’s not right for them. As well, I have to say that not many of my vegan friends looked very healthy at all – sallow, prematurely aged complexions on most of them. Some of them already showing signs of ostea spine curve. Cutting out so much from my diet caused me to crave more and more carbs and pretty soon I was making myself sick from too many grains, legumes, corn, and starches. There were only so many nuts I could eat and soy products don’t agree with me, nor does wheat gluten. You may have become sick from the grains. Some of them do not agree with a lot of people. I am a book-seller and kept selling this one book, Dangerous Grains. I never read it but will at some point.
The blood type diet theory was debunked last year in a study at the University of Toronto.
I had been afflicted with gallstones and kidneys stones at 17 years old. My parents, poor as we were, couldn,t afford the expensive $3,500.00 operation back in the ’70’s. So I struggled with the pain. I asked GOD for help. Show me, lead me, open the path for me. HE did indeed. It came in the form of 2 books, 1 on fasting and the other on a specific diet.
I tried the diet first which helped to alleviate the pain, but I wanted to dispel the stones. I did 4 consecutive fasts. After the fasting, the stones were no longer present which shocked or amazing the quack of a doctor that I was seeing at the time. At that point, I decided to stay with the diet which evolved into a vegetarian diet. I had asthma at the time also and it was no longer present. I was a vegetarian from 1973 to 2006. Long time huh!? Somehow, I took to using drugs and now everything is much worse!!! I’m planning on going back on the vegetarian diet by the Spring of 2015. I’m going to gradually re-introduce myself to this excellent regimen.
Why? Because it’s the best alternative to taking a pharmacy full of medicines and going “Under the Knife”!
Well the next time you get into a car accident *bless that you may not*, instead of going to the hospital, tell your parents or friends that you’re gonna pray to God and eat some green leaves. I bet that’s gonna help you a whole lot!
Ah man! Isn’t it obvious by now …?!
People are not machines or clones of each other. ‘One man’s meat is another man’s poison’ and all that. We each need to eat what’s appropriate for us as individuals. Therefore, ALL of the comments here are ‘true’ for some of the people some of the time, but they are NOT true for all.
Consequently, any generalisations made from cherry-picked studies (and all of us have a tendency to cherry-pick studies whose conclusions align with our personal biases) are, ipso facto, false. And any prescriptions any of us might want to make for the entirety of humankind based on our personal biases would result in poor health for all those people who don’t thrive on the same diet as us. Where’s the compassion in that?!
I have a small organic farm where volunteers can come and work for a while. I don’t farm animals for meat but I do keep poultry for eggs. I eat a predominantly vegetarian diet with occasional locally-sourced, traditional and individually-reared animals. I have yet to have a single vegan volunteer who had the power, strength and stamina to do the work. So it strikes me as wickedly ironic that if missionary vegans had their way (and there seem to be an unfortunate prevalence amongst vegans of people who’s sole mission in life seems to be to brow-beat the rest of humanity into their totalitarian utopia), then it’s unlikely there’d be anyone left actually capable of growing the world’s food …!
“Consequently, any generalisations made from cherry-picked studies (and all of us have a tendency to cherry-pick studies whose conclusions align with our personal biases) are, ipso facto, false. And any prescriptions any of us might want to make for the entirety of humankind based on our personal biases would result in poor health for all those people who don’t thrive on the same diet as us. Where’s the compassion in that?!”
This is a wonderful example of the appeal to balance fallacy. When you say that there can be NO prescriptions applicable to the whole of humanity, what you are really saying is that there is NOTHING that *everyone* shares in common. This is false, both with respect to biology, and with respect to everything else.
I respect the notion that we should avoid “over-generalizing,” but we’ll all gain more of truth by us each attempting to justify whatever generalizations we make, so that our multiple perspectives remain focused on the same viewed object of the world.
you say don’t lump everyone in together, because one mans this is another mans that… yet you lump all vegans into a weak, lazy group?? there are many vegan athletes, and many many many weak and lazy meat eaters
perhaps the vegans lacked the motivation to help you because they didn’t agree with what you were doing… just a thought… remember, vegan is not a ‘diet’, its a lifestyle, based on ethics and morals
Neda,
Read my comments below. Check out Dr Ritamarie Loscalzo, The Vegetarian health Institute, Dr. Michael Klapper…. You just need some information. You can add iron to your diet by using a cast iron pan, by adding acids such as lemon to vegetables, by chewing more completely, by supplementation. But you don’t want too much iron either, as it ioxidizes or “rusts” in your body, in essence. Go to http://www.vegetarianhealthinstitute.com where you can find this informaiton in very simple short form. Or just google your questions “How to get more iron from a vegan diet.”
The author was never a vegan. That’s for sure! Probably too scared to try. I say, “fine”. Go on eating and promoting your carnivore lifestyle. Then when the joint pains, high blood pressure, and related sickness begins, take prescription medications- and go on laughing at all of your healthy vegan friends who keep on looking younger and healthier than you and your stupid doctors.
I was a vegetarian for 45 years but recently switched over to vegan 24 months ago and never felt better in my life. My digestion is great, metabolism is normal without food cravings, emotionally happier, doing lots more exercise including 200+ push ups a day. I’m 63, male, 5’11, 185 and have a 331/2 inch waist.
Doing just fine, my carnivore friend. While you’re following your doctor’s advice for pain and inflammation, I’m playing golf, tennis, going to parties and enjoying living.
Here are the flaws within your argument: 1. You are using anecdotal evidence. Congrats, you claim you feel great on a vegan diet. That is not science. 2. You imply, without evidence, that omnivores need pain medication, have high blood pressure, feel unhealthy, etc. These are just your assumptions and emotions talking. Did you not read the study mentioned in the article? Both vegetarians and omnivores are likely to have similar longevities provided they are health-conscious. There is a way to eat a clean, nutrient-dense, fresh food-dense, unprocessed diet that involves salmon and meat. Unfortunately, the standard American diet includes a myriad of fast food, junk food, and desserts. Maybe that’s the cause of some health problems, no? 3. You fail to acknowledge that all humans are different. While you may thrive (or at least claim to thrive) on a vegan diet, there is evidence that plant based diets can cause chronic illnesses. I am exposed to these cases all the time, since I am one of them. I know giving up meat is both addictive and rewarding, but remaining so emotionally close-minded and assuming everyone else is unhealthy is unfair, biased, and destructively dogmatic. It also sounds like you didn’t read the article. I wish you the best.
Great way to be a snooty, condescending vegan. Maybe vegans should work on that – not stepping on everyone else’s feelings, while they are being kind to animals, by taking cheap pot-shots at people for not being vegan. You catch more flies with honey than putting others down.
Rima – Check out resource Vegetarian Health Institute where you can find very simple information on cooking, food combining to avoid nutritional deficiencies – things like how to get more iron and calcium out of your food, how to combine food, best choices in sweeteners, breads, alternatives, recipes. It’s a wonderful resource. Also check out Dr. Ritamarie Loscalzo. I think her website is drritamarie.com. She has beeen vegan for 25 years and has raised both her children as vegans. She just knows what she is doing. This topic has over 900 comments, many from people who are in a rage. One thing I notice which is why there is no concensus – vegans are talking about ethics and the whole and meat eaters are talking about themselves. All the nutrirional issues people bring up about veganism can be easily resolved with some focus and attention. The resources I mention above are a great start. The problem is veganism is simply more advanced and most people aren’t interested in a commitment that goes beyond their own immediate desires or they aren’t able to manage the focus and change required. That’s all their anger really speaks to. Yes people have tried to take on vegan diets without much information but that information is available now. There are also now very advanced cookbooks on making vegan cheese, dairy, etc (The Gentle Chef) or try Yoram Ottolenghi’s amazingly sophisticated cookbooks Plenty and the newly released More Plenty. As you focus you will realize you have to give nothing up to not participate in the horror we perpetrate on sentient beings whether we let them eat grass or not. Ah, also try ordering the vegan chocolate caramels with sea salt from Amella in CA!! Good luck!!
Even if animal products are good for your health, as the author claims, you have to pay a fortune for grass fed/organic butter, meat, cheese. I have made up my mind, I am going vegan and trying to make good choices for my children (9 and 5 years old).
Any difference between a vegan diet for adults and a vegan diet for children.
Thank you
You do not have to pay a fortune for grass-fed meat, especially if you eat 1-2 servings a week. Please do not make assumptions.
It is REALLY important for your children to be getting good levels of fat for brain development. If you need to ask on a blog comment section about the difference between a vegan diet for children and adults then I suggest you hold off on making that change for your kids. Keep them on their whole fat milk , cut out processed foods. Buy ethical meat – it does NOT need to be eaten each day. Maybe 3 times/week. Some free range eggs, healthy greens and whole grains.Toss out the Mac n cheese, Pizza Pockets and white bread. Throw away the Koolaid and fruit juices, give them whole fruits and lots of fresh water.
In the meantime, YOU become vegan if you wish and after a period of time , after you’ve learned the ins and outs of veganism and figured out how to prepare healthy meals that include all the nutrients you need, THEN see about how to extend that to your children if you really feel you want to take them off of meat/dairy/eggs.
It’s a big commitment and please for your kids health, make sure you have learned what you need before changing their diets.
You might find that doing the above – throwing out the processed carbs, sugars, artificial colours etc might be enough. Being vegan isnt healthier if you are still going to keep in all the other junk. Just something to keep in mind.
Don’t force your children into doing what you think is right.
This is just BS. Is anyone dumb enough to believe this? Has anyone used their common sense? It is not natural for any animal to drink breast milk after infancy. Especially the breast milk from a cow, that milk is for baby cows, not humans. Our NUMBER 1, 2, and 3 killers are linked to eating animal products. This article cites references of old data and is just an old way of thinking. I would not be surprised if this originated from studies done by the meat or dairy industries. You can find data to back up any claim you want, but the NEW science is proving the vegan diet is the most healthy diet you can be on. It can reverse heart disease (number 1 killer), diabetes 2, and more. I went vegan because I was on an omnivore diet after a check up. My blood test were very bad. A year after being vegan, my blood work was PERFECT. I have more energy, my face cleared up, my joints stopped hurting, my hair got really healthy looking and I feel GREAT. I had digestive problems my whole life and now I am “normal” for the first time ever. I have vegan food that is fortified with B-12, my almond milk has twice the calcium as dairy milk without the fat and hormones and without making my blood acidic. Today’s animals raised in factories don’t get B12 because they don’t eat in a pasture. They are fed GMO cheap soy feed filled with antibiotics and hormones and are given B12 supplements so meat eaters get their B12 second hand. The iron you get from meat is not the good iron. Please educate yourselves. This data is weak, it used small samples, it’s old and it is just not good science. Another thing to consider is that an omnivore diet is not sustainable. We are destroying our planet and our resources raising animals for food and it won’t last forever. It takes 2,500 gallons of water to produce one pound of meat. Water is getting scarce. Animal agriculture contributes 51% of our greenhouse emissions. We are eating our way to a dead planet riddled with diseases, illnesses and cancers, and let’s not forget, the medications we take and our healthcare cost. There is but one solution. A vegan diet.
Where are those studies? At least the author made the effort of providing citations. If you believe those are outdated, erroneous or biased, you should prove it wrong by providing alternative literature.
Hi
Its near a year that I am in plant based diet and I get problem with iron deficiency , my hair falls alot and my teeth is near to crack , please help me I love being plant based but I dont know what to do?
Hemp seed and pumpkin seed have a ton of iron, only need a few servings to get your DRI
dark leafy greens
Always consume plant-based iron with a food high in vitamin C to ensure absorption. Beans, dark leafy greens, pumpkin seeds, and nuts are all good sources of iron.
Corn, wheat, and soy are killing the environment. Grass fed animals, rather, have a beneficial impact.
“Corn, wheat, and soy are killing the environment” ..
And where do you think a VAST majority of this crop goes? Given the starving nations in the world, is sure as shit isn’t them.
.. It is to the animal agriculture business. Wake the hell up.
Not true. Grass-fed cattle emit even more methane than grain-fed.
Exactly my thoughts. Especially because, even if all the points made by the author would be true (which I doubt, but I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt since he does provide references and he has done his research, although it might be outdates) they would all be invalidated by the fact that animals GET supplements themselves. “While it may be possible to address these shortcomings through targeted supplementation (an issue that is still debated), it makes far more sense to meet nutritional needs from food.” good morning sunshine, go tell it to the cows who get calcium and B12 added to their feed. Where is the twisted logic, that we eat animals who got (huge amounts of) supplements themselves, or that we consume (collectively smaller amounts of) supplements ourselves? You have done some research. Do some more. And use your logic better.
Good one! Your point makes a lot of sense!
hm, maybe you should compare the nutritional composition of a Deer, Elk, Moose or other wild game with a cow and tell me why the cow is not higher in vitamins then? If indeed as you say, meat is only more nutrient dense due to vitamins put in the feed. Wild game has no additional vitamins added to their food. Just leaves, berries etc.
What about long chain fatty acids? or any of the other nutrients?
Please research your facts before making such incorrect statements.
Factory farmed animals need vitamins for the same reason vegans need vitamins: their diets are unnatural and inevitably deficient.
Also, we’ve bred dairy cows to give obscene amounts of milk. It makes sense that they couldn’t possibly keep up with their increased calcium needs from diet. Modern cows need calcium supplements because of what we’ve done to them.
B12 I’ll give you, isn’t that bacteria based from what animals eat though not produced by their actual meat?
The rest is so flawed it’s unbelievable.
Agreed, this is something the meat or dairy industry would put out there. The references were using small samples and the research was old. 1999, 1994,etc. The NEW science and research is proving that a healthy vegan diet is the healthiest there is. It can reverse heart diseases and diabetes among others. Not only that, an omnivore diet is not sustainable. If people stick to this diet, we will use up all of our water, land, and oceans to find ourselves a medicated, ill society with a polluted world. Not to mention the cruelty involved in a meat diet! How can you NOT take that into consideration? It’s not morally right to harm animals like we do if it is not necessary.
So true!
well my doc said, people will either die of cancer, heart disease, or diabetes. But “you” will live forever. Been an vegan all my life. 56 and strong bones, had 8 kids, dn’t drink dairy, eat lots of leafy greens. Who ever wrote this article is stupid
“Who ever wrote this article is stupid” — What a really insightful comment. Why don’t you look into all the research done yourself and then you can also call all those researchers stupid as well and feel REALLY great about yourself.
I’m a vegan and recently got my blood tests done. I’m free from any deficiency and attribute it to a balanced diet and healthy lifestyle. I do not take any supplements. You could be vegetarian, vegan or a meat eater and still have deficiencies if you don’t eat a balanced diet and lead a healthy lifestyle and you could also be any of these, have a balanced diet and healthy lifestyle and not have any deficiency.
Cherry picked data. Do your own research from several sources including the American Dietetic Association which notes that a well balanced vegan diet may be the most healthful.
Where are those studies? At least the author made the effort of providing citations. If you believe those are outdated, erroneous or biased, you should prove it wrong by providing alternative literature.
Are you paid by the author to respond to all people questioning his article?
Before you make a decision on what diet to implement in your lifestyle, you MUST read “Food Matters” and specially “Forks Over Knives” which are documentaries available on Netflix and show studies regarding foods and diseases caused by foods. They are life changing. Check it out!
Haha. “Before you make a decision, you MUST watch 2 incredibly biased documentaries that use propaganda.” I recommend people just try the vegan diet themselves and see how they feel long-term. I’ve watched enough people’s bodies slowly shutting down to know it’s not sustainable for *most.* and every vegetarian I know (without a chronic illness) admits they have some health problems that they know are causes by lack of meat. It’s a religion, though, so they won’t change their diet or views.
Here’s the thing abut what you just said though, because i have thought much about this topic and done much research: i can take my vegan friends who have health issues and look at their family members who eat meat and those family members also have health issues. i know soooo many people with health issues and so few without it really has more to do with the generation we are in and the toxic environment humans have created for themselves.
many times i know veg clients and friends who tried going paleo or eating some fish or meat to see if they would get better, and they didn’t.
many meat eaters are also very deficient in vitamin D and in B12.
What I see, as a practitioner who works in an integrative pharmacy, is it turns out it has much more to do with whether they got the proper immune support at birth, what good or bad bacteria their mother (and possibly the hospital if c-section) had or didn’t have to innoculate them with at birth, whether they were breast fed, whether they were exposed to foods that their immune system was or wasn’t ready for at a young age, whether they were exposed to vaccines, anti-biotics, GMO foods, pesticides; what genes and mutations they were given, etc etc…
so really it is much more complicated than just adding or subtracting animal flesh or organs to a diet. adding meat to a diet does not equal health, we all, including the very intelligent author of this article can agree on that.
most important is the amount of stress we have and the sources for our foods and medicines, and maintaining a healthy microbiome aka gut, as well as the quality and purity of everything else we put ON and IN our bodies.
Considering ethics and the greater good is sooo what we need right now in our world, so i support everyone who is doing that and changing for the better, whatever level they are ready for whether Paleo and choosing their animal medicines very very carefully, such an upgrade compared to SAD and fast food culture, or veggielicious folks who should also be choosing their food as medicines very carefully and making sure to choose Organic and Beyond Organic. I also support everyone on both diets to supplement to make up for the previous generations toxic creations, to make up for the over zealous use of anti-biotics and to make up for all of the pollution.
supporting the body with extra nutrients, nutritionally dense superfoods like chlorella and dulse, stress preventing adaptogenic herbs like holy basil and rhodiola- this is where it’s at in this day and age. the plants and mushrooms and bacteria have much intelligence beyond what we comprehend and can truly help us in our evolution. <3!
(thanks for the inspiration and for your awareness everyone!)
“i can take my vegan friends who have health issues and look at their family members who eat meat and those family members also have health issues.”
And I can take meat-eating friends and my meat-eating self, who have no health issues and say the same about our vegan family members. Except that every vegan I know has health issues.
Wow, your sample size of 1 vegan is really impressive!
I’ve been vegan for 6 years and never been healthier! Lol
I’m vegan and I agree with this article. I get annoyed with all the pseudo-science spouted by other vegans, plenty of it in the comments here. Veganism is an ethical stance, nothing else. I take a multivitamin designed for vegans, as well as a high strength B12 tablet and a vegan source of DHA/EPA. Some things you can’t get at all from a plant based diet, an many things not enough of. It’s better for me not to worry.
I do have a vitamin D deficiency (I’m a fairly new vegan, most of it will have occurred while on a vegetarian diet), so I got prescribed high strength, non-vegan D3 pills. When it comes to medication I take what I’m prescribed. My health comes first.
if you’ve got a Vit D deficiency, get outside some more, it’s really that simple
Its not that simple if you live in higher latitudes, like New York or Toronto.
I find it very interesting that the majority of the “anti” vegan/vegetarian comments are full of typo’s, incorrect spelling, incorrect use of punctuation, and grammatical errors… That, in itself, speaks volumes. Yes, I am a vegetarian working towards becoming vegan.
This is too funny. The plural of typo is “typos”, not “typo’s”. In this single case, you have both made a grammatical error and made incorrect use of punctuation.
What speaks volume is your inability to write a 4-line post without making your own mistakes, while having the audacity (or smugness) to put down others for the same.
volumes
I’m currently a vegetarian and I’m curious what does grammar and spelling have anything to do with one’s nutritional choices & beliefs?
That is what I call a stupid comment.
Such a mess of poor information. Veganism works just fine, and if you have problems with it, look at your diet. Vegans tend to have LESS b 12 deficiency than carnists, among the many unfounded points spouted on this silly page.
The statement that vegans have more B-12 deficiency than omnivores is hardly unfounded:
Am J Clin Nutr. 2003 Jul;78(1):131-6
Am J Clin Nutr 2009 May;89(5):1693S-1698S
“Some obscure species of mushrooms can provide large amounts of vitamin D, but these mushrooms are rarely consumed and often difficult to obtain. ”
White button mushrooms are obscure and difficult to obtain? They just need UV exposure and they’ll produce vitamin d.
I knew that this subject would garner a lot of feedback. *grin*
I find it interesting that some people think that we have to “rise above” and develop such an overt sense of compassion toward animals that we have to stop killing/eating them now.
We evolved over many, MANY years… MILLIONS of years, “killing” both animals and plants. What is it about “compassion” that some people think that we humans should evolve differently from other predators?
I’m sorry… but SCREW compassion if it means that we have to decidedly evolve to fit YOUR sense of morals. A tiger, sentient or not, kills other animals, sentient or not. That is simply how our part of the universe works! (And probably other parts of the universe.) Let me repeat, THAT IS HOW OUR PART OF THE UNIVERSE WORKS! Compassion has little to do with it! NONE of our life on Earth has evolved through compassion! Symbiosis, yes, compassion, no!
If a giant eagle (a sentient, high-reasoning one, let’s say) swooped down and picked me off to eat me, I’d be effing pissed! But I wouldn’t blame it for eating the poor human with its sad, doe-like eyes!
Which brings me to this… I think that this generation’s problem is that we watch too many cute kitty and puppy videos!
I will eat what I do not have a personal attachment to and I will not eat what I prefer to pet and scratch behind the ears! And the self-righteous people who think that they wish to grow more spiritual than me can have-at it at their own expense!
And IF you think that I am thoughtlessly immoral and am going to some kind of hell because I don’t have a spiritual life then let me just say, my link takes you to my book on my sense of spirituality the short version of which is, “True, divine Life is not held within the flesh”.
Do I believe in compassion in my life? Yes! Do I think that we should treat animals with compassion? Yes… up until we slaughter and eat them!
Cheers!
Christopher
Christopher are you suggesting the world needs less compassion? Are you sure this is what you want to suggest? That’s the thing about cognitive dissonance. It causes us to do one of two things to relieve the uncomfortable feeling it causes to have this conflict. We either change our values to reflect our actions. Or we change our actions to reflect our values. It appears you have changed your values. Because I know you value your own life and I know that you enjoy living in peace – I assume you would not enjoy living in a concentration camp or a war torn area. We all know that bad things happen. That some animals eat other animals. We know that we ourselves would not want that to happen to us. And we know that we have a choice not to eat others. Regardless of whether or not others are eating others – that is never a reason to say that something is ok to do. It doesn’t mean the bird is right or wrong in what it does. It means that to know what is right or wrong you must only look at yourself – not the actions of others – and ask yourself if what you are about to do is the best thing you could do or if you could do better. Ask yourself if what you are about to do to another is something you would be ok with happening to yourself. You have already answered that one. I am an atheist btw.
I don’t think that you paid any THOUGHTFUL attention to my comment!
No, I don’t think we need less compassion. I think we need less emotional attachment to creature-hood… and kitty and puppy videos!
1/ If another animal ate me, I’d hate the fact that I would be ripped to shreds but I could hardly deny its cosmic right to doing so. I could only try to avoid it happening.
2/ I believe that true Life and Consciousness is NOT part of the flesh. I don’t really care if you are an Atheist or not or whether you think I am calling that Life and Consciousness God or not. But if some government edict were to suddenly be put into place to stop killing and eating animals I would be on the wrong side of the law.
3/ I DO believe in compassion, up until I slaughter and eat the animal which I have a cosmic right to slaughter and eat. It also has a cosmic right to try to avoid being eaten if it somehow senses what’s comin’!
I don’t know if you are a farmer or not but it is a common issue that people divorced from the food chain get all weepy-eyed about killing animals for food.
I believe that one day this phenomenon will be taken to an extreme and we will be attaching human rights to puppy-dog-eyed robots or robots that are made to look like human nannies and we will one day make a law against the so-called “killing” and “abuse” of said robots. We already see hints of this when people respond to their GPS’s comments, Furbies, their tablets, etc.
This tendency toward this anthropomorphization and personification of both animals and, in the future, robots, is nothing short of a sort of insanity.
Christopher
Do we need less “emotional attachment” to our neighbours and other people around us?
Or are we humans “above” all other species?
Are are you one of those who believe humans to be holy?
What I hear from hunters is that they live the correct life style eating healthy natural food. So are they so special that only they should have the right to live that “perfect” life style?
Imagine what would happen if all 7 billion humans on Earth would hunt their own food!!!
We’ve killed off over 80% of all other living creatures (insects not included) in less than 150 years.
Cows, pigs and other animals bred for consumption derive from wild species. They were taken into breeding because they were easy to handle. The cows wild ancestor was driven to extinction as soon as we had large enough production of cows.
NOW, just because we want or can eat meat, do we really have to behave just like other animals that don’t have our brain capabilities? What are our brains worth if we can’t understand and give compassion to other species? How evolved are we really?
Some become vegan or vegetarian because they don’t want us humans to keep on treating other species in such a cruel way as we actually do. Most wild species don’t have to live a life in torture as do most of the animals we breed for consumption.
Give all bred animals an NORMAL, NATURAL, and HEALTHY life and when the time comes for slaughter then do it in a compassionate and understanding way. Understand the species you breed and slaughter. Every species needs to be treated differently. For ex, a cow will stress out immediately as they see the trucks that transport them to slaughter, already understanding what is hell is ahead of them. Don’t fool yourself into believing that other species aren’t intelligent and that they don’t have conscious awareness. That is just and excuse for mankinds mad behavior.
P.S. I’m a meat eater. But I buy meat from sources I can check are treating the animals well, local farmers, etc. I gladly pay between 2 times to more than 5 times more for this and that with a VERY low income. I work for an NGO.
Amen!
Could it not be possible we are evolving toward a plant based diet/vegan lifestyle? And to prey on an animal is one thing but the current way the majority of humans “prey” is not alright. It goes way agains nature to breed, torture, name and then slaughter an animal for consumption. Not to forget the global impact it has. When an owl swoops down to pick up a mouse and eat it, it isn’t using 50,000 gallons of water and leaving the mouse in a cage where it can’t move for days, raping it and stealing it’s offspring to feed off it’s milk and then eating some hormone infested form of it.
mate, come on… are you really comparing yourself to a tiger? an animal that eats EVERYTHING of the animal it kills… it doesn’t skin it, cut off a small chunk, then season it, then COOK it… it has a biological system to deal with processing meat… check out our biology, we don’t… we share nothing with carnivores, or omnivores, but our biology is the same as a herbivore… also, you are not a predator… if you have a pet cat, or a pet dog, for example, this is why you don’t attack it and rip it to pieces, you love it and enjoy its company… you also don’t run into a field and attack a cow… you have been sold a product, an ideal that meat is necessary for humans… animals kill for need, humans kill for greed
You are setting up a straw man argument there David. Of course, humans are not exclusive carnivores like tigers but we are if fact biologically well-adapted to digest meat and assimilate nutrition therein. Humans are opportunistic eaters, and can sustain themselves on a wide range of diets, from all living kingdoms (which make humans, by definition, omnivores). Here is an intellectually honest perspective on human omnivorism from a vegetarian resource group: https://www.vrg.org/nutshell/omni.htm
That said, just because humans *can* extract nutrition from meat doesn’t necessarily imply that they *need* to do so to get adequate nutrition.
Thank you, Christopher. After becoming a sick and exhausted vegan and spending too much time around self-righteous vegans, this is the same conclusion I came to myself. Death is not a pleasant business for any living thing and it will come one way or another and me being vegan is not going to halt the food chain. I make ethical decisions around how much meat I will eat and how it is fed, raised, and even slaughtered. Animals die worse deaths all the time on their own….I had the misfortune of getting in with a group of fanatical vegans who just couldn’t shut up about so many things all the time, I developed a case of PTSD listening to them. There was no way to have just a normal dinner with them without talk of animal abuse or vegan canine diets or vegan wines (those not filtered with animal guts) or putting down meat-eaters or comparing chickens to domestic dogs and cats. I felt like I was at an AA meeting a few times being introduced at the start of my starting to become a vegan “as on my way” . They didn’t know I was that into the idea or not at the time…. I tried it and it didn’t work and as well, I got really tired of the extreme company it caused me to keep.
One of the really strange things I ever heard from my vegan friend was that if we all don’t eat animals, eventually racism and discrimination of all types will be wiped out….
My vegan husband and I are currently trying to get pregnant and I have a dirty secret; I have been sneak-eating meat. I was a pescatarian (eating fish very seldomly) for about six years and then went back to eating meat for about four years before I met my husband, who is an outspoken vegan. I was always interested in veganism, since there is still a great deal of cruelty that goes into mass produced dairy, so I decided to go vegan for my husband about a year ago.
My husband has been vegan for about three years, so he helped me make the transition to veganism, but it hasn’t really gone very well from the beginning. I know many people feel wonderfully healthy when they eat vegan and I soooo wish I was one of those people because I have an emotional investment in making veganism work for me. I believe it’s a good way to be and I want to support my husband and not cause any rifts between us, but after over a year I’m coming to terms with the fact that I’m not doing well with this lifestyle. I keep trying to adjust my diet to include more protein and vitamins/minerals I may be missing, but I still end up sneaking meat. I’m starting to wonder if my behavior is turning into a type of eating disorder. I don’t want to lie to my husband anymore about my diet.
We’re trying to get pregnant right now and this brings up even more conflicting feelings for me. I want to honor what my body is telling me to eat without lying to my husband. I don’t want him to tell his friends how healthy I am during my “vegan” pregnancy. I don’t want to ban my children from eating meat or dairy if they are more like me, but I don’t know how to tell him any of this because he gets really emotional about the issue.
Currently, I bought a few meat products that I keep at work and eat a couple of time a week for lunch. My mom also occasionally brings me eggs from some backyard chickens her friend keeps as pets, which I have brought into our home. My husband eats these eggs from time to time and will also eat any animal products that were going to be thrown out (leftovers from the office, etc.), but is very opposed to me buying animal products. I’m planning on staying at home when our baby is born and won’t be able to hide meat at work anymore, but mostly I just don’t want to lie about this. I would like to go back to being a pescatarian and feed my children mostly veggie with some fish/poultry and eggs.
What should I do?
Vicky,
I would love for you to watch “Forks Over Knives” and “Food Matters.” It might help your case:) Good luck!
She says she is physically unable to stick to a vegan diet and that her non-vegan vegan husband is adamant that veganism should be enough for her to be healthy (forget fertile!) just because he’s healthy on his non-vegan vegan diet. And you suggest that she watch a movie so intellectually dishonest it’s insulting claiming to prove that a vegan diet without enough fat to even absorb the fat soluble vitamins in veggies is the only way to avoid a painful demise? That strikes me as rather sadistic.
And yeah. Listen to your body. My motto: when it comes down to pleasing the author of some book (who you will likely never meet) and your own body, go with your body. I didn’t do well on vegetarian OR low carb paleo. Note: this advice only applies to food that has some arguable nutritional value. If you’re craving cookies there is a reason for that too, and you should find out what it is, but eating more cookies is unlikely to be the answer. Sleeping more, increasing or decreasing your carbs… But fish, eggs, steak? Those messages are real and true.
If you want to get pregnant and have a child with the best chance at health, eat not just fish but also eggs, and some grass fed dairy if you can handle it. Grass fed butter (vanishingly small amounts of lactose and casein) if you can’t. If you crave red meat, eat it too. Trust your body – there is something in it you need there. Most cultures make a point of giving extra animal food to pregnant women, not asking them to grow healthy babies without adequate nutrition.
As far as your husband, I don’t know him so I don’t know how to break the news. But it seems like pointing out that he’s been lying to himself about the adequacy of his “vegan” diet and has got a lot of gall asking you to do what he won’t would be one bullet point in the thing.
Reading some ancestral eating websites on fertility/pregnancy/nursing diets and shoving them under his nose would be another. Whether they are strictly accurate or not (my gut says 80% true, 20% overblown) is immaterial to the goal of converting him to allowing BOTH of you to eat a complete fertility diet.
Good luck with Project Baby!
Ask him what’s more important to him a happy healthy wife and child or his moral standpoint? If he’s happy to eat animal products that would go to waste he’s not so vegan after all. I know vegans that would starve to death before they ate animal products again. So it’s time for him to jump down off his high horse and let mamma do what she needs to do. Your body is telling you what you need. Take care and best of luck with your new family
So true. If he eats meat occasionally then he’s not so vegan to judge you for eating it occasionally either. So you should tell him definitely.
We have an example here of a common situation. Vegans who are not really vegan and whose health is the result of occasional meat eating. And I’m sorry, but I get very pissed off at people who say that it is perfectly healthy to be vegan and yet sneak meat and animal protein on occasion and I believe this to be the norm!
There are NO, NADA, NONE long lasting societies who lived as vegans. Period!
For the 2.5 million years that we have been human, including the 200,000 years or so that we have been “sapiens”, we have eaten meat!
Ummm the Brok-pa Ayrans have survived on a vegan diet for 5,000 years… Do your research before you talk crap..
The Brokpa are not vegan. They include butter, mutton and goat milk in their diet.
http://www.krepublishers.com/02-Journals/S-EM/EM-02-0-000-08-Web/EM-02-2-000-08-Abst-PDF/EM-02-2-077-08-099-Bhasin-V/EM-02-2-077-08-099-Bhasin-V-Tt.pdf
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20041107/spectrum/main1.htm
Took your advice…and did the research. Ta Dah!
“Brogpa vary with respect to the amount of meat (mainly mutton) that they eat. Household’s economic position decides the consumption of meat. It is only during festivals and rituals all have greater access to mutton.[5]”
Bhasin, Veena: Social Change, Religion and Medicine among Brokpas of Ladakh, Ethno-Med., 2(2): 77-102 (2008)
There is wisdom in all that. Discuss it with him as a medical issue, you are having food cravings, that is soooo normal. Consider getting an integrative doctor who specializes in C.A.M. or functional medicine who can do your full profile to see what you are missing, and also check what you are “sensitive” or allergic to.
Cravings come from different reasons- the mind seeking comfort, our microorganisms (good and bad) seeking food, our nutritional needs. Whatever your body is trying to get- it could be iron, could be protein- then be sure to supplement it using whole food based supplements in the best possible form. Consider: the super nourishing Health Force Nutritionals “Vitamineral Greens”, and their “Warrior Food” for protein. Also consider taking the vegan DHA and Methylcobalamin (active form of b12). or ask your husband if he would agree to you eating fish once a week or taking fish oil for now. There is a great vegan prenatal by Kind Organics, a super ethical 100% non-gmo vitamin line.
PS. Most lunch meats have preservatives like BHT so they really aren’t a good thing necessarily.
Hi Vicky
I would suggest you get regular blood tests done to see if you are deficient in any vitamins and minerals. It is always best to listen to your body but there could be some other reason you’re craving meat and it might not be protein you need e.g. you are not eating enough. If that is the case maybe try eating more or eating high calorie foods like avocado or nuts. I’m no nutritionist but they’re some thoughts that come to mind. You’re body will be trying to find ways to make up for the extra nutrients you need during pregnancy. I’m sure if you explain that to you’re husband then he’ll understand. I’m vegetarian but have always said I will have meat during pregnancy if I need it-best to not take chances during this crucial time. Perhaps see if you can get the extra nutrients with plant foods first. Hope that helps.
A well-balanced plant-based diet is clinically proven not only to meet all of our nutritional needs, but to offer important benefits that protect us from all of the most common chronic and life-threatening diseases. Here are a couple of examples based on peer-reviewed scientific research:
– Kaiser Permanente Health System encourages all of it’s doctors to recommend their patients adopt a 100% plant-based diet. https://www.thepermanentejournal.org/issues/2013/spring/5117-nutrition.html
– The American Dietetic Association position on vegan diet states that 100% plant based diet is healthy and protective for people of all stages of life, including young children and pregnant women. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864
In the first article you cite, the authors include ovo-lacto vegetarian and mediterranean (allowing small amounts of fish, poultry and red meat) as types of plant-based diets. They do not make a blanket recommendation for a 100% plant-based diet for everyone.
The second article you cite refers specifically to vegetarians (no meat and seafood, but allowing eggs and dairy), not strict vegans. Here is the relevant portion of the abstract, in proper context:
“Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes. A vegetarian diet is defined as one that does not include meat (including fowl) or seafood, or products containing those foods. This article reviews the current data related to key nutrients for vegetarians including protein, n-3 fatty acids, iron, zinc, iodine, calcium, and vitamins D and B-12. A vegetarian diet can meet current recommendations for all of these nutrients.”
What would you recommend for someone who is has a severe dairy/egg/wheat intolerance? When I go out I usually say I’m vegan because it’s just easier for restaurants….when they know what vegan is……
Thanks!
I’m not sure why people get their undies in a bunch over this.
There’s other articles on the internet that show the downfalls of eating meat.
Kresser is just pointing out the potential deficiencies of a vegan diet.
Just like Dr. Greger points out that meat consumption increases disease.
It’s not a big deal.
It depends on the type of meat as well and it assumes no one is going to glut on it. Grass-fed meat is not bad for you.
I do agree with this article. I am a US citizen but lived in other countries also. I know family and friend who are Diary farmers in their 80s and going strong. My grandfather was a farmer passed away at 98. The typical diet consist of meat and more meat and maybe some vegetables on the side. This whole tree hugging, animal loving idea only applies to the USA specially metropolitan areas. Sorry to be blunt, but some people live in their own bubble and need someone from outside to wake them up. You will live longer if you eat whats necessary for your body to function, low level of stress and exercise. I am a science major, studying to become a physician. Good luck.
Two points – many if not most people who are vegans are ethical vegans. That means that taking a vitamin B12 supplement is not a reason to start eating sentient beings raped and bred for our pleasure. Do many people do vegan wrong? Yes – but most people do food less than optimally no matter their diet. Instead of warning people against vegetarian/vegan diets Chris has more than enough information to instead instruct people on how to maximize iron and calcium absorption from vegetable sources. Yes plant cell walls are harder to break down than animal protein cell membranes. Chew. That’s the difference. A squeeze of lemon on broccoli makes iron more bio-available. The fact that Chris knows this stuff but intead couches his article as though there are no easy solutions to promote his paleo protocols is what feels disingenuous to me. If you want more information on better balancing ALL plant eating check http://www.vegetarianhealthinstitute.com or http://www.drklaper.com which offer information geared towards those issues we all know exist but few penetrate to the point of tweaking their diets to include. You are not what you eat but what you absorb, whether vegetarian, vegan or meat-eating.
Right on!
Vegan friends,
Kindly quit looking for ways to be offended by this article and thus responding with varying degrees of outrage. As human beings, it can be a very uncomfortable thing to receive new information that conflicts with our current beliefs… yes, I get that. I understand. The knee-jerk response for a lot of us is to become angry and defensive when this sort of thing happens, it’s not an uncommon phenomenon.
But the mark of a truly intelligent and rational mind is to be able to accept new evidence that conflicts with one’s current beliefs and adjust one’s behaviors and ideas accordingly, rather than desperately clinging to the familiarity and comfort of one’s current path while frantically attempting to rationalize doing so.
Facts are facts, and this article is dealing in facts. Your anecdotes about how you’re vegan and haven’t yet reached a state of B12 deficiency do not count as empirical evidence.
Quit with the tired argument that “true” veganism doesn’t include soy products or grains. That is just nonsense and a blatant No True Scottsman argument. All vegan diets are, by their very nature, “true” vegan diets. And let’s get real: most vegans eat fake meats made of soy, as well as tofu and the like. Don’t kid yourselves.
The average American eats junky foods in massive quantities and would benefit from switching to any diet that emphasizes fruits and vegetables, vegan or otherwise. This is why so many feel like going vegan has improved their health – it has! But any relatively healthy diet is going to make you feel better than eating McDonald’s and KFC every day, it doesn’t need to be vegan to be worthwhile.
Loved your comment, Kai. Reasonable and thoughtful. I would like to try vegetarian, as I’m not a big meat eater. I don’t eat steak or ribs and would be thrilled to never eat ham or chicken again. The problem is I don’t like the taste or texture of most fruits and vegetables. (Just smelling a mushroom makes me to gag.) I’ve been trying, and I have expanded my vegetable tastes a little over the last ten years. Your specific comment, “any relatively healthy diet is going to make you feel better than eating McDonald’s and KFC every day, it doesn’t need to be vegan to be worthwhile” makes me feel much better. Thanks!
I get a checkup yearly. Every time my doctor is amazed at how great my results are. I am EXACTLY the average weight, I am EXACTLY at the average height, my blood pressure is PERFECT, my vision is 20/20 my hearing is 20/20 and the doctors never have anything to say about my health other then it’s great. Oh, and guess what? I am a vegan! I think that was self explanatory and all I have to say is that vegetarians and vegans are very healthy.
Hey, guess what? That applies to me too. And I’m NOT a vegan!!!! Wow!!!! Anecdotal evidence doesn’t mean anything!!! Welcome to science 101!
If you can read and afford to grocery shop, being a healthy vegetarian or vegan is not hard. It is only those who do not do their research, or worse, ignore what they know that end up unhealthy.
I have been a vegetarian for a decade and my boyfriend has never eaten meat in his life (raised by vegetarians). Neither of us take supplements. Neither of us are deficient in anything (not even that pesky B12). Neither of us are scrawny or fat. Of course, I cook most of our meals at home and I put a lot of attention and care into making sure that what I put in our bodies can sustain us and sustain us well.
It’s not rocket surgery, folks. It’s just food.
This article is not remotely balanced or impartial. Whereas certainly some micro nutrients B12, Zinc, Iron, perhaps others, have long been known to be reduced in a standard vegetarian or vegan diet, the benefits of vegetarianism were not properly stressed nor the true picture represented. I feel it is important to treat veganism and vegetarianism entirely separately to avoid confusion and not lump them together to bolster a case against them.
Meat consumption, particularly processed meat, is strongly implicated in a range of serious conditions, such as the major killer bowel cancer as well as cardiovascular conditions. There are also studies such as those major studies of Seventh-day Adventists which have no ‘healthy user bias’ as they come from a highly comparative group with similar restrictions on other lifestyle factors between them. Those results were a marked 5 YEAR reduction in life expectancy for meat eaters.
David Spiegelhalter, professor of the public understanding of risk at Cambridge University indicates the loss of life to be as losing one hour per day for the eating of processed meat.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-28797106
There are conflicting large-scale European studies which suggest that this may not be as marked in difference between non-vegetarians and vegetarians. The accurate picture is the jury is still out. It’s either a major benefit or perhaps no difference – take your choice.
never think twice about going vegetarian! just do it and you’d be happy and healthy forever.
btw, avoid soy, corn, wheat stuff as well, since they are mostly GMO, which would harm your body sooner or later.
Awesome write up Chris! I tried veganism at one point in my health journey. Although I had some initial success and starting feeling a lot better in the first few days, I did a lot of damage after sticking to it for too long.
For me it was mostly the high intake of carbs that messed me up. I was too reliant on fruit and grains. My teeth started breaking and rotting, I aged an expedite rate and I eventually started losing all of my energy, strength/muscle mass, and became depressed and unable to focus.
Primal style eating (with my own additions and restrictions) and SCD style preparations has saved me.
Right now I’m undergoing a 21 day ALL meat and vegetable diet and documenting the whole thing on a blogger page I created just for that purpose. If anyone is interested in seeing the effects of a restrictive diet like this I encourage you to stop by and read through. I’ve been taking photos as well and will be adding them as visual documentation as well.
http://meatandvegetablediet.blogspot.com/
Thanks!
-Rob
Thanks Rob, will you also be blogging about the animals that must die for you to experiment on yourself? Seems only fitting as you are blogging about other essentials like how your nose itches..
Ahhh the levels of narcissism reigns high on the internet. But indeed, so long as the status quo allows you to avoid confronting the murdered animals for your experiments, have at it. Their anguish, in the form of chemicals dispersed in their dying flesh will just do you wonders.
Grow UP! Why don’t you try compassion for people too who had to try something else? If you can’t say something entirely condescending and just plain mean and ignorant, say nothing….
You sound very covertly and overtly narcissistic. Holier than thou – everyone else is a sinner….
We hate to break it to you, but it’s not like the man has his own dungeon full of animals just for himself. Him doing or not doing his dietary experiment is not going to suddenly pull the meat that is available for him to purchase off the shelf. Believe me, someone will buy it. But it won’t be you, obviously. But it will still go to someone’s nutritional benefit, like it or not…
Rob – Same thing happened to me. I got really sick with chronic fatigue probably due to more reliance on grains and legumes. Have switched to a more primal diet and I feel must less bloated and exhausted and foggy all the time. I became really depressed as well. I’m still healing from all that. I also did not eat wheat and still felt bad. I noticed that a lot of my vegan friends look older than they should for being so healthy, supposedly. Not to mention sallow-complected.
My Fiancee and I are currently switching over to a Vegan diet. In addition, we are trying to keep our diet to organic and Non-GMO veggies. However, we plan on keeping our vitamin regiment, which has B12 as well as other things. This blog did not impact us on that decision, we just like taking our vitamins. We are excited to get started and are on our way to a healthier lifestyle. We are finding it a mind set of thinking we need to eat meat more than anything else. In fact, it seems that what has really been engrained into our minds over the last 50 years is that if we don’t eat meat then we will get sick and die. I am not buying it anymore; the story or the meat.
I found your blog searching for “normal deficiencies with vegan diet” as I just got back from getting my blood work checked after being vegan for a year and wanted to brag to my omnivore friends. You see, everything came out perfect, – even B12. I do not take any supplements
My doctor just kept laughing as he checked off everything down the list while exclaiming “perfect! perfect! perfect!”. That’s never happened to me as an omnivore. Also, I am rid of all my allergies, asthma and skin conditions since going vegan 
Also feel clearer in my mind, and rid of PMS, which I used to suffer greatly from! I could not be happier with this lifestyle and recommend it to everyone and anyone!
See, like someone else mentioned above, it depends on who you are. I spend a lot of time tweaking my diet to fit MY needs. When I find what my body likes to eat, I eat it. I don’t shout it from the rooftops–“Hey everybody! I always have really great lab results (I always do)! Come eat the way I eat!!” I was vegetarian for nearly half of my life and vegan for three or four of those years. When I became pregnant, I added fish and liver back into my diet. I’d rather get my vitamins from food if possible. While I am nursing my kids, I add more animal products to my diet. When I am beyond this stage of my life, I might go back to being vegetarian if that is what helps to keep me healthy. I feel pretty good on a vegan diet when my body is not working over-time keeping up with small children and breastfeeding! In addition to eating well, I also sleep, exercise and enjoy my life.
While it’s fun to sit around and nitpick which diet is best for ourselves and the environment, we have to mindful of where people are in their lives. The fourth-generation pure vegetarian is still a human living on this planet, as much as the kid who is being raised eating burgers from McDonalds (I’d like to think this is a trend of the past, but judging by the lines at the drive through, we’re not there yet). We all have room to contemplate the bigger issues at hand and make decisions about what is ethical, moral and responsible. It’s easy to point fingers at who is wrong and who is right, but it’s harder to teach people to really listen to their own bodies. No one gets a gold star from God when they die based on their holier-than-thou dietary principles.
Looking at the comments below people have success with vegan and vegetarian diets whilst others have not had success. Thus one has come to conclusion that any diet shouldn’t be treated as one size fits all solution when it comes to human health considering that everyone’s nutritional needs are different. Now if you have chosen your diet due to animal welfare and/or environmental concerns then one should keep an eye on research in these areas since it constantly changes to a point were their may longer be an issue- http://www.ciwf.org.uk/media/5234769/Nutritional-benefits-of-higher-welfare-animal-products-June-2012.pdf http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/sustainable-livestock-production-is-possible
I hate “fake meats” and never eat them. I eat a crapload of vegetables, usually just a bunch of roasted veggies for dinner. Some fruit. I eat a ton of salads. I also use quinoa a lot. I don’t use nutritional yeast or Bragg’s or anything like that.
I have been vegetarian for over 20 years and did a raw vegan cleanse for a couple of months. I could never be raw long term. (although it makes you poop like a champ!)
I started eating fish about a year ago. No desire for any other meats.
Have been having extremely, extremely heavy periods for about 2 years. Elected to have some iron tests done and I am, indeed iron deficient anemic. Doc said to just get on iron supplements and that although heme sources of iron are absorbed more readily that it doesn’t matter, just eat veg if I want and it is all about elemental iron. I’m going to see how well I absorb the supplement. I eat a ton of non-heme iron. I just started on a heme iron supplement, so we shall see.
I’m been vegetarian for 40 years, and I’ve been eating a mostly plant based diet for the last 6 years, with full veganism for the last 2. I very rarely eat soy, usually only when someone has made it for me, and I eat very little cooked grains. I eat semi raw, lots of sprouting, seeds and nut cheeses, fermenting vegetables and making raw sprouted breads, and I feel great. I do take vitamin d3, k2 and b12. My weight is ideal, I have very little aches and pains and enough energy for a nearly 60 year old. It’s not for everyone, but meat-eaters seem to get very upset about veganism and I’m constantly challenged when it’s mentioned. I don’t lecture people on what they should eat, so therefore I feel it’s very rude when I’m told that my diet is wrong.
I find it interesting that this author lists vegan/vegetarian diets as low in vitamin D. Seeing as how most vitamin D is not gain through any diet but from exposure to the sun I wonder why it was included here. There are no significant food sources that fulfill human need for vitamin D. If there is a large amount of vitamin D in any food source, such as vitamin fortified milk, it has been added to that food source. Essentially the manufacturer is supplementing your diet with the needed vitamin. Research has indicated that a significant number of humans are vitamin deficient when it comes to D because of the use of sunblock and lack of exposure to sunlight. If this author can be misleading on this it brings into question their credibility as a whole. It would have been nice to read a better researched article.
Chris’s article does have just enough mis-information in it to bias the reader against a vegan diet just like he intended. Many comments also show the writer’s ignorance on nutrition and what a vegan diet consist of.
After enough years of eating the Standard American Diet (SAD) there is no other diet shown by research to reverse heart disease other than a vegan diet. Maybe future research will show that near-vegan is enough to reverse the damage to arteries but it has yet to be performed.
There is no world standard for a vegan diet so for Chris to say it includes refined grains etc is just garbage input. Sure, one can follow a vegan diet of only French Fries and ketchup but what published doctor is recommending that? People like Drs Fuhrman, McDonald, and Ornish have published books reflecting their recommendations and none recommend refined grains or processed foods be consumed in any significant amount. To reverse heart disease it is recommended that daily fat calories are less than 10% of total daily consumption, reduced salt intake below government recommendations and very little animal products which includes meat, fish, eggs, and dairy.
If you find the requirements too strict do not follow it but do not knock it till you have research that shows there is something better for reversing artery damage. Go have all your heart operations which you will find do not reverse your disease and have a good day!
Due to a heart attack at age 49.( no iI didn’t have high cholesterol or high blood pressure) I have gone to a vegetarian diet. The best long term studies I could find point to a strict vegetarian diet to decrease or reverse cardio vascular disease.
At this point the evidence has proven to work for me. I was on all the traditional heart medicines that were prescribed for a heart patient. A statin, blood pressure medicine, daily aspirin and others. Due to a great doctor who monitors my blood and other numbers every six months. I am now down to just the blood pressure medicine to keep my heart rate down just as a precaution. I am sated in my eating. Have never felt healthier and the numbers prove it. Eating grains are not an issue to most people but it has become the buzz word I would recommend if grains bother you try heirloom grains which many find they can metabolize just fine even with gluten. Examples are einkorn flour.
Chris states that i gets “cold” after eating a vegetarian meal.
That is downright silly. I start my day off with a combination of beans, greens, nuts, grains, and fruit. I forget about food until the end of the day when I remember that it is time to eat dinner because it is close to 6:00 pm. I live in Northern California in a coastal aea and wear a short sleeve shirt year round supplemented by a cotton pullover and a heavier coat she it gets really cold. My absence of meat, chicken, eggs, cheese and other animal elements has absolutely no bearing on my body heat. I am 60 and have been primarily a vegan for 4 years and definitely will not be returning to what I was weaned on. Sometimes I go to France, and consume all that France has to offer in the way of food, but I can tell you after a couple of weeks of that, and the odor of my smelly poo, it is a relief to get back to plants.
Struggling vegan here. Been vegan for almost a year – eat whole foods and rarely junk too :/ Looking for a meet-in-the-middle to my love of animals but to still have optimal health. How do you feel about the Pescatarian diet with regards to optimal health?
Have you ever checked out the Engine 2 cookbook? It’s a cookbook by a guy named Esselstyn. His recipes have been tested out on his fireman coworkers so you know they are guy approved. http://engine2diet.com/recipes/favorites/ It might give you a few ideas to spice up your menu and get balanced nutrition.
She didn’t say she needed yummier recipes. She said her health was faltering. And if she’s poking around on websites trying to find the least un-vegan diet that will cause her to stop feeling like hell, I’d say the probability is she’s already tried improving the nutrient density of her vegan diet.
As far as the original question, a pasture raised egg a day, a can or two of sardines a week, and three cans of oysters a week will correct basically every deficiency in an optimally rich vegan diet. Add a few ounces of gouda a week and you’re even getting K2 and rounding out any calcium deficiency you might have.
the truth guys is that in this modern age people are eating TOO MUCH of everything, especially in America. too much meat and too much vegetables; we are overabundant and bankrupt. whatever our beliefs are, scientific or not, eating too much is just as harmful as not eating not all. we oughta see how our parents and their ancestors ate and kept themselves healthy when they had to eat for their lives.
Good grief! Chris I’m thinking most of these people must have found you through a search engine, since given your average blogging, this just doesn’t seem like a real common place for (clearly emotional-about-it) vegans to hang out in general. Somewhere around here I have a Minger Squirt Gun.
I know hundreds of vegans, including Olympic and other professional athletes and I have been vegan myself for eight years. We are all super healthy and rarely get sick. Read “The China Study.” The people in regions of the world that are vegan live the healthiest, most disease-free and longest lives: fact.
I was a vegetarian during the years 1974-1976. I had to do this because of my poor health. Gallstones, kidney stones, asthma, hay fever, and I couldn’t put on any weight.
It was pretty tough giving up the animal products and finding substitutes, but with the help of books and practicing TM, I became successful with my change in eating with my new diet. Eventually, all of my ailments disappeared which I hadn’t notice at all. I simply felt better and I was able to do so much more. After 2 1/2 years of vegetarianism, I decided to join the Marine Corps to get out of my neighborhood. I tried to adhere to the diet while in boot camp, but the physical demands of the training was beginning to take a toll on my body so I gave in to the animal products, but I only ate what was needed and always left portions on my tray. I continued to TM which helped a great deal. I worried about my recent ailments which I hopefully had eradicated, yet, they did not resurface for almost 25 years!!! I’m going back to being a vegetarian when I reach my ’60’s and to be honest becoming a vegetarian during that time actually saved my life.
Without concerning ourselves with all the pollution created to produce the animal protein in the typical Western Diet, I like to know how you meat-eaters think the world is going to feed the whole world the Western Diet after the developing world is developed and expecting the same diet.
Going to have to be some real miracles in agricultural technology given the size of the earth…
From a psychological point of view, it seems a lot of these diets and perhaps an extreme over interest in the subject of health, comes from a place of emotional turmoil. In the same way people who run for 20+ miles a week, or girls who develop anorexia, you’re using your body as an outlet to shield you from your problems or serve as something you can act out on. Which by the way, would also be why discussions about this topic on the internet tend to turn into insane screaming matches.
Very astute observation, Frank. I read a blog about a woman who spent a lot of time denying how sick she was getting on a vegan diet and then as a feminist realized how oppressive and self-abusive it was all getting to be before she wised up and started eating what her body really needed to survive and heal the problems that her vegan diet caused. It was a really interesting read and she cautioned women who have ever had an ED (eating disorder) to be very careful with the vegan thing – that it can be a cover for self-restriction. As a failed vegan, myself, I can’t tell you how many rail thin and totally anorexic women I saw who were vegans. Your comment and this other woman’s blog makes a lot of sense. Veganism can become a covert, feminist oppressive issue as well.
I’m not vegetarian but I shop every week in a health food shop. For years I have tried out all kinds of different diets all of them promising something and none of them delivering. In the end, for me personally, eating for a healthy life means not eating white foods (especially not sugar), making sure my diet contains as wide a variety of foods as I can manage of lots of different colours. I also avoid wheat, but that’s more because I don’t like the sluggishness that I get afterwards than for any other reason. I also buy organic whenever I can – particularly dairy and eggs.
There is so much information about diet it seems like a minefield out there.
In the end you eat what makes you feel good – for life, not just for the moment when it is in your mouth!
I think this all is individual and the worst thing you can do is wasting your time arguing on the Internet. Well, I’m not a vegetarian, I simply love to eat steaks but I respect everyone’s personal choice. Moreover, what can you do with vegetarians? Making them eat meat? Come on! I guess they know what they’re doing. Some statistics even show that they live longer. So why should they change what they do? Because of some article published on the Internet?
More scientific studies reveal that vegetarian diets aren’t as healthy as many followers think:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3917888/
Looking at the study there is, right from the beginning, two immediate questions raised in my mind. The first is sample size. The “vegetarians” were only 2.2% of the whole group. Secondly and maybe more importantly, they have lumped all “vegetarians” into the same group regardless of whether they were vegan, lacto-ovo vegetarians and/or pescitarians. That could have a massive impact on the results as the three diets are quite different.
When looking at the healthcare section of the study, they claim that “Our multivariate analysis regarding health care has shown a significant main effect for dietary habits (p = .000) and confirmed that, overall, subjects with a lower animal fat intake demonstrate worse health care practices.”
“Vegetarians and subjects eating a carnivorous diet rich in fruits and vegetables consult doctors more often than those eating a carnivorous diet less rich in meat (p = .003)”
“carnivorous diet rich in fruits and vegetables” – What is that? Paleo? What meat? Red meat? Chicken? Fish? Elephants?
As for limitations (As all studies are prone to have):
“Potential limitations of our results are due to the fact that the survey was based on cross-sectional data. Therefore, no statements can be made whether the poorer health in vegetarians in our study is caused by their dietary habit or if they consume this form of diet due to their poorer health status. We cannot state whether a causal relationship exists, but describe ascertained associations”
“Further limitations include the measurement of dietary habits as a self-reported variable and the fact that subjects were asked how they would describe their eating behavior, without giving them a clear definition of the various dietary habit groups”
The conclusion can be read incorrectly if one is not careful:
“Our study has shown that Austrian adults who consume a vegetarian diet are less healthy”
That does not say say a “vegetarian” diet will make you less healthy, it says they found (And that’s debatable IMO) that those on a vegetarian diet seemed less healthy. They are not the same thing. I’ll repeat “We cannot state whether a causal relationship exists, but describe ascertained associations””
I think this study offers little value to be honest other than a jumping off point for more thorough research.
Oh god this is depressing! Have you read the China Study? Watch forks over knives that has got some good stuff on health – or read world peace diet? I have been Vegan for some time and last time I went to the doctor I didn’t tell him – got my blood and organ checkup and he said that it was perfect and asked what I was doing.
When I said I was vegan he freaked out without considering that a healthy person was sitting in front of him telling him it works out fine. So my overweight red faced doctor told me to be “very careful long term” and sent me on my way shaking his head. Look up Mimi Kirk or Jim Morris if you want to see the effects of this diet over 50+ years?
There are so many ways to make it work and if a vegan has eaten chips and bread and becomes iron or b12 deficient you blame the vegan diet? What about thinking about this the other way around? What about considering the world we would be in if nothing was killed for food? Once again – read world peace diet. Its a positive and awesome way to live.
LOL @ China Study and Forks Over Knives! Read the comments and you’ll see multiple references to the debunking of the China Study (flawed science). And why on earth would I take the advice of the biased veg*ns that produced Forks Over Knives? If you’re going to comment on Chris Kresser’s site, you have to do better than China Study and FOK.
.. and you just proved yourself a mainstream puppet. Who do you think is *paying* for the various rebuts of these excellent works?
Foster any behaviours you want to condone your complicit acceptance of abhorrent cruelty to animals in the name of the status quo, while vegans the world over prove how healthy our lifestyle is.
Didn’t read all the comments but you forgot to mention K2 as it is only found in animal fat.
The study in your 15th reference DOES conclude that high intake of fruit by vegetarians lowers their rates of cardiovascular disease!
If you look at the full text of that study, there are all sorts of interesting, and damning, tidbits about vegetarian diets. Like the 64% increase in mortality in women with breast cancer. Not too surprising, since feeding cancer with carbohydrates is the *worst* thing you can do. (As Steve Jobs discovered.) In fact, vegetarianism *increased* mortality among women with breast cancer *more* than smoking increased mortality in all cancers.
Ridiculous. Jobs didn’t discover any such thing. His cancer was growing long before he changed his diet. Where he went wrong was in not agreeing to conventional treatment. Not consuming animal products if anything probably bought him some time.
One thing that gets lost in all the talk about the RDA’s and “essential nutrients” are the conditionally essential. And most importantly, all those hundreds to thousands of as yet unresearched, or even unnamed or unisolated, which exist in both animal and plant foods, that a vegetarian or vegan can’t know they need to supplement for best health. And couldn’t supplement even if they knew, since the supplements don’t exist yet.
The only sane way to eat for health is to eat omnivorously and to maintain a high level of variety.
Dietary intake and nutritional status of young vegans and omnivores in Sweden.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12081822
“Vegans had higher intakes of vegetables, legumes, and dietary supplements and lower intakes of cake and cookies and candy and chocolate than did omnivores. Vegans had dietary intakes lower than the average requirements of riboflavin, vitamin B-12, vitamin D, calcium, and selenium. Intakes of calcium and selenium remained low even with the inclusion of dietary supplements.”
Please note that vegans ate LESS junk food than the controls, consumed MORE veggies, legumes and supplements than the controls, and STILL managed to be low in essential nutrients.
This next article is a story of vegan children who experienced growth/developmental issues despite taking dietary supplements. (I suspect a carotene to Vitamin A conversion issue was also at play, but that wasn’t noted in the article).
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/healthy-living/how-our-vegan-diet-made-us-ill-848322.html
This article is by a vegan turned omnivore for the health of her family:
http://kristensraw.com/blog/2013/03/17/my-vegan-diet-caused-health-problems-would-primal-paleo-or-real-food-be-better
Finally, we have a fascinating article by a vegan woman who has chosen to incorporate animal products into her daughter’s diet. It reveals DEEP pathological behavior in the raw vegan community. This is a profound and ongoing problem. I don’t happen to agree with all of her conclusions, but I’m very appreciative of her effort to publicize these issues, some of which I have personal experience with:
“Then I had to question the sanity of those who dismissed the experience of others. The blatant lies and cover-ups are likely due to the left brain being too dominant in these people. While I feel physically sick that this still happens, I refuse to judge or condemn them. They need love, just like the rest of us. They need to be made to feel safe and secure so they can be truthful and get the help they need for their children without risk of attack.”
http://www.shazzie.com/life/articles/raw_vegan_children.shtml
Thanks for posting the links, Karin. I plan to check them all.
It’s my pleasure, Kitsy! Thanks for the feedback.
I liked that link that you posted, too.
Legumes and grains can be really bad for some of us….Been there, done that.
Here We Go Again: Vegetarian Diets and Mental Health
http://evolutionarypsychiatry.blogspot.com/2014/02/here-we-go-again-vegetarian-diets-and.html#comment-form
We certainly don’t need to eat meat as much as most of us do. Once a week is plenty. With respect to dairy, stick with organic and if you can find it, raw milk. Especially organic butter, which is concentrated. Eat your vegetables well-cooked to unlock the nourishment behind the strong cell wall. (Freezing and drying and fermenting works, too). Unfermented soy products are very hard on the body, disrupting hormone and endocrine systems.
And let’s not forget that whenever we eat, we give death to something. Let us honor the plants and the animals who so willingly sacrifice themselves so that we might live. We are all food for something.
i almost suspect this is a troll post. I don’t think one could pack more misinformation into two short paragraphs if one tried. Every single bit of information here is so status-quo rah-rah that it is almost emblematic of all that we work so hard to awaken people to. And to top it off to compare the suffering of animals to that of plants, who apparently go “willingly” to their deaths. How UTTERLY sad to post such a thing.
From yesterday’s NYTimes:
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/03/17/study-questions-fat-and-heart-disease-link/
Dr David Katz Director, Yale Prevention Research Center: http://huff.to/1qX5ZTQ
yikes: http://bit.ly/1jxyIJv
If you want a good answer to the faulty claims in this article, please read :
http://www.theveganrd.com/2014/03/dont-think-twice-about-going-vegan.html
I’ve been vegetarian all my life, 48. I am extremely healthy, cycle everywhere, swim, dance for hours every week.
In the last few years I had to take a serious look at my diet to deal with arthritis that has developed in my foot (hereditary)
I found that ensure it is much more alkaline, less grain and acidic veg, high intake of raw greens has changed it from not being able to put my shoes on to.. to being able to dance barefoot, pain free. In the process of doing this I found the key supplements that help are cold pressed Hemp Oil, which is high in Long strand Omega oils.. much better than fish. B12 is a bacteria that is easily available when foraging berries.. blackberries and raw seaweed. Most meat is now irradiated and wrapped in plastic, so the bacteria that makes it has been killed off. The critical issue we face is that poor farming methods have reduced the vitamin and mineral content in food. So it is important to source organic, sustainably grown food, where the soil has been fed and cared for. There is so much information out there on how to eat well.. especially from the raw food nutritionists like David Wolfe.
The key in working out what diet suits you, is to pay attention to the affect your food has on you.. if you eat well, you will feel well.
I was vegan for 16 years, developed serious estrogen related illness because of soy phytoestrogenic compounds, felt like crap for most of it…
moving to paleo due to carbohydrate related problems with vegetarian diet (GERD, LPR)…
funny that now I am a meat eater! hahaha!
For those of you swooning over forks over knives read this pretty brainy dissection of the research:
http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/09/22/forks-over-knives-is-the-science-legit-a-review-and-critique/
I converted from being carnivorous to vegan 5 years ago. People have said it was extreme and that I would not succeed. It was a great struggle but I was determined to lead a healthy lifestyle and hoped that through it I may be able to get rid of skin rashes I get every now and then, poor sleep, constipation and feelings of depression. I think as my body started to get rid of toxins built up over the years, I felt some sort of withdrawal symptoms which vanished as my body slowly accepted my new diet regime. One day I went to my doctor for my annual pap smear and we chatted about my vegan diet. She was very concerned about my health and told me that it would do enormous long term harm to my health. She suggested that I do a complete test to check that everything was alright. Everything was tested in my system, every nook and cranny and nothing was left to chance. When I came back a week later to get the results, she couldn’t believe everything was healthy except for a very tiny bit of deficiency in Vitamin D which she said could be improved with adequate exposure to sunlight. I couldn’t be happier. The skin rash that would plague me had not returned, I sleep better, the constipation had vanished and my bowel movement has become regular and I feel much better. And that’s thanks to my new vegan diet., Well, I still drink wine – red wine – in moderation and I have included regular exercise in my regime. A vegan diet will work wonders if you know how to mix and match plant-based foods, nuts, legumes etc so that they complement each other. I also believe in God and the diet He had prescribed for optimal health.
The author missed the most important nutrient that vegans and vegetarians need to be concerned with: Magnesium!
Actually, that is completely incorrect. The best sources of magnesium in the world come from plants. As a matter of fact, animal products don’t even appear in the top 10 list of best sources for magnesium. Leafy greens and nuts/seeds are the best. Here is a great site that explains how magnesium is used in the body, how it interacts with other vitamins and minerals, and a pretty comprehensive list of whole foods that contain it. I recommend exploring the site for info on other vitamins and minerals as well. I should note that the site is not for vegetarians or vegans (though they can certainly learn a lot from it); it includes data on animal products as well, so you know it is unbiased.
Here is the magnesium page: http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?pfriendly=1&tname=nutrient&dbid=75
Here is the page for all other essential nutrients:
http://www.whfoods.com/nutrientstoc.php
I do agree with a lot of statements regarding the vegetarian diet. Unfortunately my being a vegetarian is not something that’s chosen. I cannot stand meat, seafood or fish apart from the odd fish finger! I’ve tried so many times to eat it but it literally makes me gag. I can’t stand the thought of eating something that was running around. If I chew anything and find a jibbly bit or a bone I could actually go into a swoon!
I’ve often thought of getting hypnotised lol, however all joking aside I have a 6 year old and I hate the thought of passing these habits onto him. Currently he’ll eat any fruit or vegetables, and most meats and fish. I hope it stays that way.
Of course when it comes to myself I’m not sure what to do, I know by the way I feel in myself I’m not eating healthily but I don’t know where to start.
My NHS doctor has sent me to a dietician only to be told I should eat low fat high carb diet which makes me gain wait at the pace of an intergalactic invasion. When oh when is the NHS going to drop this low fat crud…..?
I just started an online course for diet and nutrition, hopefully it may shed some light on how to proceed!
Funny how people who don’t like fruit and veggies don’t argue that that means their bodies don’t need them. And people they say it to either say A) force yourself to eat it anyway or B) you just haven’t found a good way to cook them yet.
And yet “I don’t enjoy meat/fish/eggs/dairy” is somehow considered adequate argument that one is a different species than the rest of us and their bodies are telling them they will do best as vegans.
I was vegetarian for 15 years (probably gave me the CFS I’m still getting out from under). When I started eating meat again I thought it was disgusting, but my body liked it so much I persevered, and have now found plenty of recipes that I find quite yummy.
Not that you will (since the theme here is ‘only speak for yourself, don’t tell others they will have their experience’). But my mom doesn’t like vegetables and can’t be bothered to prepare them in a way she’ll like, and she plows through a little bowl of kale every night, like taking medicine. Find something you can almost gag down and do it.
I would like to circle back to this site and Paleo as I am not sold on it. I don’t understand how any of the Paleo diets are truly Paleo because even Chris’s recipes/foods where not found in the Paleolithic era and this is the premise, so it seems to me to be a “fad” diet. I even saw that Cordain endorses Paleo Diet bars http://thepaleodiet.com/foods/. I am certainly not living a Paleo woman lifestyle and don’t want too!
@Suzie
Agree totally
Exactly how are these “paleo”? Cordain is a whore like most in the community are. Pushing products, supplements, etc.
Cinnamon Raisin
ALLERGENS:
Contains Organic Tree Nuts (Almond, Coconut) and Organic Egg. Good manufacturing practices are used to segregate ingredients in a facility that processes other products, which may contain peanuts, treenuts, wheat (gluten), milk, soy and/or eggs.
INGREDIENTS:
Organic Dates, Organic Almonds, Organic Egg White Protein Powder, Organic Raisins, Organic Sunflower Seeds, Organic Sesame Seeds, Organic Hemp Protein Powder, Organic Coconut Oil, Organic Vanilla Extract, Organic Cinnamon, Sea Salt, Non-GMO.
NET. WT. 2.47 OZ (70G)
Cranberry Almond
ALLERGENS:
Contains Organic Tree Nuts (Almond, Coconut) and Organic Egg. Good manufacturing practices are used to segregate ingredients in a facility that processes other products, which may contain peanuts, treenuts, wheat (gluten), milk, soy and/or eggs.
INGREDIENTS:
Organic Almonds, Organic Dates, Organic Egg White Protein Powder, Organic Sunflower Seeds, Organic Dried Cranberries (Cranberries, Apple Juice Concentrate), Organic Hemp Protein Powder, Organic Strawberry Juice Concentrate, Organic Coconut Oil, Organic Vanilla Extract, Organic Cinnamon, Sea Salt, Non-GMO.
– See more at: http://www.tpdfoods.com/product/sampler-pack/#sthash.iHi9cj8t.dpuf
Phil Nichols, that is an impressive list of the major thinkers of the past centuries. People who are able to see the big picture. Beyond splitting hairs over micronutrients you have to ask why people react wth such rage to people who do not feel animals are here for the primary purpose of serving man’s desires, because react with rage is what they do. I think some people are able to see animals as sentient and others either aren’t or simply haven’t turned their thoughts to it, which would be fine but the rage is strange. Awaiting the no doubt follow-up enraged comments and attacks…..
lol Erica
there’s another saying.. something to the effect, “no amount of evidence will convince someone of something they are not willing to accept”
ya, Im not getting dragged into this. I will give Karin her link since she asked but Im outta here.
http://vegan.wikia.com/wiki/Famous_Vegans_and_Vegetarians
Good grief.. here Erica back with her reading comprehension problem.. her blinkers that only allow her to see what she wants to see and disregard the rest! LOL indeed Phil.
As for “famous vegetarians”…
I’ve seen it stated (on vegetarian sites incidentally) that Albert Einstein was likely only a vegetarian (not a vegan) for the last year of his life. So what?
Listing these famous people as if that adds any weight to your argument, is about as meaningful and convincing to me as the questions around Hitler’s religious beliefs. Was he Catholic or Atheist? So what?!?
It’s great that you have made your own lifestyle choices… please respect others to do the same for their own reasons.
My reasons..? try reading some of my other comments; instead of persisting with the myth (like Erica) that all “meat-eaters” are self-centered, egoists, hung-up on micro-nutrients… blah blah blah blah blah…
Darwin wasn’t a vegetarian.
Lincoln wasn’t a vegetarian.
Gandhi thought that prescriptive vegans were fraudsters and enemies of India:
In the end he had to acknowledge the necessity for animal food. In 1946 he declared: “The crores of India today get neither milk nor ghee nor butter, nor even buttermilk. No wonder that mortality figures are on the increase and there is a lack of energy in the people. It would appear as if man is really unable to sustain life without either meat or milk and milk products. Anyone who deceives people in this regard or countenances the fraud is an enemy of India.”
http://naturalhygienesociety.org/diet3.html#0
I don’t have time to fact-check them all. The list itself is based on nonsense and wishful thinking……..oh that’s right……..
“based on … wishful thinking”
Sure it’s a nice idea to think that you can live without taking life… especially if you use anthropomorphic ideas to decide on what actually counts as “alive” but it is a mistaken and misleading view of life.
I don’t find it hypocritical of me to say I respect life, while I share it with other lifeforms on this planet.
Perhaps Erica has her fingers in her ears and refuses to hear the rational, and reasonable discussion going on here (see Karin’s excellent earlier comment) — it really must be so much easier to dismiss all “meat-eaters” as thoughtless barbarians (although I’m still not clear where Erica stands, as she denies being a veg*n herself)… maybe this is why she is unable to respond in a reasoned way… too much self-loathing?
Karin
actually, I do have a garden and although we are not solely 100% self sufficient, it does help out with the grocery bills.
my whole family are vegans for over 20 years. It takes more than 25 times as much land and crops, not to mention water and energy to raise animals of which only a small percentage makes it back to the tables of humans.
so if you are interested in saving plants, land, water and energy, you are best to stop eating meat because thats at least 25 times worst.
Dorothy,
I asked for a list of foods that you are eating this winter, because I think it would enlighten you just how many more animals might be killed in the process of raising the crops and getting you that food than living like the Amish farmer that I referenced in my prior post. He doesn’t grow crops to feed to his steers. His steers eat the grass.
Also, you may not know it, but animal-based inputs are used in growing almost all of that organic food. Usually CAFOs. I would love to learn of your plan for the world (or even the continental U.S.) that can feed all people using all-veganic, non-industrialized agriculture. If you can do that, I’m in.
Provided that you also include a plan for all of the people who do not thrive on plant-only diets.
Sorry! Here is the linking to that meat-eating vegan.
so this is the best we can do as a civilized society after all these years? We can send men to the moon, we have new ways of agriculture… but we must follow the way of a tribe? I don’t think this is the way for all. Not too many people living in todays so called advanced society would take on this position. This is justification for eating animals because some indigenous tribe does so? The Ancient Mayans used to toss their first born to the volcano Gods to assure a good coming year… maybe we should do this too, after all, it would help keep the population down
Hi Dorothy,
I’m going to take a wild guess that you don’t grow all of your own food. Or that you didn’t really didn’t read my prior post, as it pertains to industrialized agriculture.
Care to share all the foods that you’ve been eating this winter? Maybe we could evaluate the impact in a way that you’ve never even considered.
Did you watch the clip Dorothy? You never know… might find it enlightening.. especially the last minute or so.
Hi Suzie,
Thanks for your question! I am responding at the bottom of the thread because the sub-thread was so narrow that it had become unreadable.
“Open Mind” stated:
“If someone wanted to do something – like not eat animals or drink their secretions that you would respect their position – that at least this person is doing something.”
I deeply respect and identify with the INTENTION to avoid harming animals (both human and non-human). It is a subject that I think about every day of my life. But I reject the position that prescriptive and/or dogmatic veganism is creating a gentler and more sustainable world “on the ground.” If you want a gentler world, my position is that rigid adherence to universal veganism moves us in precisely the wrong direction.
To evaluate whether or not a person is in fact doing “less harm” to animals by choosing a given vegan product over an animal product, it’s important to consider where one lives (i.e., are you in Alaska or San Diego?), the time of year, how the plant foods were grown, harvested, processed and packaged, how the different crops were protected from wild animals, how the animals were caught or raised, how the different products were transported, total pollution costs, etc.
I don’t know if you’ve reviewed all of the posts on this thread, but I’ve studied crop and soil science, and I think it’s important to consider more than the overt violence of the slaughterhouse when thinking about the tremendous amount of violence that is INHERENT in attempting to feed 7 billion people. Agriculture, especially large-scale agriculture, is innately violent. In order to feed one species to the exclusion of others, you must uproot homes, displace, poison, trap, starve etc. etc. etc. It is brutal. You must declare that this parcel that was once home to many, is now the property of the few. It is now yours, and yours alone, because you are at the top of the food chain. Someone tried to compare animal agriculture to human slavery….well, if it is, then what the heck is “plant-based” agriculture? The fact is that we are human animals and we are competing with others for scarce resources. There is absolutely no peaceful way to do that. http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/scienceshow/mice-the-biggest-losers-w-vegetarianism/4660498
Allow me to elaborate:
I live in upstate New York.
Let’s say that my Amish friend slaughters his (grass-fed) steer. If he gets 500lbs of meat from that steer, and eats a 1/4 lb of meat every night for dinner, the meat would last him 2000 days. So he is effectively eating/killing less than one cow every 5 years.
Let’s say that, out of compassion for animals, I choose a “Vegan-approved” option like legumes and grains for dinner every night over the course of the same 5+ years.
S.L. Davis from the Department of Animal Sciences at Oregon State University, writes:
“One Oregon farmer told me that half of the cottontail rabbits went into his combine when he cut a wheat field, that virtually all of the small mammals, ground birds, and reptiles were killed when he harvested his crops. Because most of these animals have been seen as expendable, or not seen at all, few scientific studies have been done measuring agriculture’s effects on their populations.” In a study that has been done to examine the effect of harvesting grain crops, Tew and Macdonald (1993) reported that mouse population density dropped from 25/ha preharvest to less than 5/ha postharvest. This decrease was attributed to both migration out of the field and to mortality. They estimated the mortality rate to be 52%. In another study Nass et al. (1971) reported that the mortality rate of Polynesian rats was 77% during the harvest of sugar cane in Hawaii. These are the estimated mortality rates for only a single species, and for only a single operation (i.e. harvesting). Therefore, an estimate somewhere between 52 and 77% (say 60%) for animals of all kinds killed during the production year would be reasonable. Using the population density shown in Tew and Macdonald’s (1993) paper (25/ha) times a 60% mortality rate of 15 animals/ha each year.
Note that these figures just refer to the harvesting of the plants. We aren’t even discussing the effects of processing, long-distance transport, fossil fuel use, etc. Remember that the farmer killed a steer every 5+ years. I would respectfully ask any vegan to estimate the total number of animals that are maimed, displaced, turned into roadkill, starved, or otherwise harmed in the planting, harvesting, packaging, and transport over hundreds of miles of 5+ years worth of grain and legumes?
So, getting back to Open Mind’s question about whether or not eating plant-only is “doing something”: Obviously it’s doing “something”, but in my opinion, sometimes MUCH more harm than good.
Regarding use of the word “vegan”:
Before writing this, I googled the phrase “am I still vegan if I eat….”
Over 200,000,000 hits came up. That suggests to me that too many people may have priorities which are counter to the goals of sustainability and compassion. Why would one care if others consider it “vegan” to do something? Shouldn’t the individual instead be considering whether it causes less suffering than the alternative? Vegans have traditionally avoided honey because it “exploits the bees,” which, in my mind, suggests that these folks either have no idea of what’s involved in producing most “vegan approved” crops, or that they do know, but in their effort to maintain their membership in the “club”, they fail to be mindful that their choice may not actually reduce suffering.
Does it make any sense, for example, to purchase a container of brown rice syrup over local honey if one wishes to reduce animal suffering? Similarly, why would one prefer to purchase tofu over oysters, if impact on the welfare of animals and environment are the main consideration? A variety of animals, including mammals, are killed and maimed in the production of the so-called “vegan” options, and I think the evidence suggests that far more suffering is involved, as well.
Even if we were to accept the (dubious) premise that eating plants always causes less suffering than eating animal products, I would argue that a meat eater who chooses not to bring children into the world, purchase a car, or travel to far-away countries for pleasure is causing far less harm than the “plant-only” eater who brings children into the world, drives a car, and takes vegan cruises http://www.atasteofhealth.org/events/rates.htm.
We routinely hear people describe themselves as a “vegan who eats honey”. Would a meat eater such as my Amish farmer, whose entire life, I submit, does FAR less harm to animal life than a typical “plant-only” eater, rightly be called a “vegan who eats meat”? The most magnificent meat-eating-vegan I’ve ever seen: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=attenborough%20hunter&sm=3
Many self-proclaimed “vegans” scoff at the idea of not purchasing certain things that might contain animal parts, like computers, TV’s, cars, etc. I find that to be a preposterously self-serving and cowardly position. Most of the world doesn’t have these things. My Amish friend doesn’t have these things. Authentically vegan intentional communities exist to avoid such things. So when some people claim that they are making such a sacrifice for the animals, I have to wonder what alternative reality they are living in. It seems that the sacrifice begins and ends with the replacement of ice cream with “Coconut Dream”. Are we to take this seriously? Why would we use a single word to describe someone, if the word itself doesn’t even consistently MEAN anything at all?
Open Mind provided that story about the starfish.
I also like that story.
But here’s my little spin on it:
It’s the story of a mildly self-righteous, ecologically unaware girl who thinks that as long as she doesn’t actually eat animal parts she’s doing right by the animal world and the world as a whole. She has never grown her own food, and only has the vaguest ideas about how it all gets to her, and doesn’t even realize that the byproducts of animal agriculture are an essential part of the production of most of the “vegan” food that she buys.
One day she hears about the plight of the starfish, so she decides to book a flight to east Asia so that she can personally assist in saving them….
When she gets there, she realizes that the starfish are being washed ashore by cargo ships that are loading up with an array of food items. They are to be transported on a several-thousand mile journey to quell the ever-increasing appetites of unconscious consumers in New York, many of whom are “vegans” just like her. And then she suddenly realizes that the airplane that carried her and her fellow “eco-tourists” on their way to rescue those starfish probably killed a bunch of birds on the way.
I used to be that girl. It may seem like I’m mocking her, but I’m really not. Except to the extent that she was ignorant enough to think that she was more “compassionate” or “empathetic” than the farmer who stays home and lives off the land with the help of his animals, selling nourishing food at farmer’s markets and purchasing essentials from his neighbors.
What I want to see is a return to a more traditional, yet progressive world. One where people eat moderately and with respect for their bodies and their farmers. One where diets aren’t based on importing $20 a day worth of fruit into New England in the middle of winter from thousands of miles away. One where people sustain themselves through the winter predominantly with the foods of winter, which, in many regions, are animal foods. I believe that this way of life is still the norm in places like France, for example, where people consume significantly more milk, 4 times the butter, 60% more cheese, much more organ meat, etc, and yet manage to live much longer than us!
In my opinion, if we want to build a better world for all animals, both human and non-human, we would consider a range of actions and/or abstentions like the ones below. I see these and similar actions as far more life-affirming than universal veganism.
1. Adopt children, rather than procreate.
2. Don’t consume more than you need: Don’t buy more than one home (and make it a modest one); avoid travelling to faraway places for pleasure; don’t use food as entertainment; avoid purchasing products of big industry; avoid buying stuff wrapped in plastic; be mindful of the hidden impact of every act.
3. When you do consume, consume locally. Basing your diet on foods that are coming from Thailand and Africa and New Zealand and Chile when you live in Montana is not helpful to animals in any way! Animals are maimed and die every time your cargo ship/airplane moves through their habitat!
4. Don’t waste.
5. Share: i.e., Help others eat well. If we share resources/cash nobody has to buy horrible, inhumane food.
6. Create an intentional community. Try to grow food veganically and see just what’s entailed into producing food for humans. In fact, I might be open to letting someone on this thread use my 12 acres of land to show us all just how easy it is to sustain him/herself in upstate New York throughout the year without the use of animals. Maybe we could make it a reality show.
To be honest with you, this is a tough post to write. I don’t know quite how to express how uncomfortable I am with the idea of killing animals. This is not the world that I would design. However, I tend to believe in a form of reincarnation, and if I were to come back as some random animal to this world, I honestly would prefer that it be a world where humans live simpler lives and are more reliant on themselves and their surrounding communities for their food, rather than one run by vegans who kill through an over-reliance on massive industry and big agriculture and gigantic multi-national corporations……even if most of the people in this vegan-dystopia see animals like me as warm and fuzzy and think that they’re doing me such a huge favor.
I relate to this quote by Michael Pollan:
“The fact that you cannot come out of hunting feeling unambiguously good about it is perhaps what should commend the practice to us. You certainly don’t come out of it eager to protest your innocence. If I’ve learned anything about hunting and eating meat, it’s that it’s even messier than the moralist thinks. Having killed a pig and looked at myself in that picture and now looking forward (if that’s the word) to eating that pig, I have to say there is a part of me that envies the moral clarity of the vegetarian, the blamelessness of the tofu eater. Yet part of me pities him too. Dreams of innocence are just that; they usually depend on a denial of reality that can be its own form of hubris. Ortega suggests that there is an immorality in failing to look clearly at reality, or in believing the force of human will can somehow overcome it.”
So say we all! Nicely put Karin
Wow – Thank you Karin for explaining your experience and your perspective at length: “used to be that girl” – you are still that girl but continue to learn and shape your purpose in the world. However, your experience does inform your strong opinions as you seemingly fight hard against “vegans” – how could it not. Maybe using what you have learned and your energy – your schooling will propel you to become a leader in sustaining this world. I can’t see the solution so try my best.
Thank you so much, Susie. Your gracious response means more to me than you will ever know.
Thanks for writing this Karin, it has helped me see more clearly.
Thanks for your kind words, AmyR!
.. the article talks about “deficiencies” … like no meat eater ever had a deficiency? My father was eating meat regularly. at 80 he developed an iron deficiency.
Doctors advised him of diet and even subscribed an iron supplement that he used to take. He died at 82 from a heart condition.
Some meat eaters live longer, some live shorter, some vegans live longer, some shorter. There are many vegans over 100 and meat eaters as well.
Some people grow to over 6ft tall, some never reach 6ft. this is DNA.
There are fat meat eaters, skinny meat eaters, healthy one and sick ones – same as vegetarians and vegans.
If “health” was not even part of this equation, then it comes down to right from wrong, cruel from not cruel and what is best for the environment.
I hear lots of meat eaters justifying the cruelty with simple statements like, “well, man has to eat”.
but we know now that man does not have to eat animals. The thought of “harvesting animals” is right out there when you think about it.
Most wouldn’t “round up” all the neighbourhood cats and dogs and cook them all for the “tribe” to eat now would they? yet SOME DO!
So what makes cows and pigs and chickens different?
People say its not cruel… would YOU trade places with an animal harvested as “food”? For those that think its not cruel, have you ever seen an animal slaughtered in front of you? (I have) .. Have you ever visited the local slaughter house? Have you ever even watched the animals being herded off the trucks and onto the “kill floor”? Would you take your kids to the slaughterhouse for day trip?
Why not? if its so “normal” and ok? and the way of life? and the way its been for millions of years?
I see lots of kids gardening with their folks in the summer but never any class trips to the slaughterhouse.
as far as ecology, it takes far more energy and land and crops and water to get a small percentage of meat. This energy, land, crops and water could be used to feed the ever growing population of people not animals raised to be harvested.
just a thought.
Hi Drew,
You seem extremely confident in declaring the plant-only diet as universally ideal for human health. I struggle to see how you have come to this conclusion, in light of the massive amount of evidence that I have seen to the contrary.
I noticed that you recommend that people eat “vegan, varied and complete, with whole foods, as raw as possible” for optimal health. I think that the preponderance of the evidence suggests that *many* adults with a high metabolic rate and few food sensitivities can indeed thrive on such a whole foods plant-only diet, because if you have a high enough caloric intake, it doesn’t matter much if the foods consumed are nutritionally dense or optimally bio-available.
But would you really give the same recommendations to everyone? For example, to people with a wide range of food sensitivities; to people with thyroid issues; to people who have difficulty synthesizing cholesterol; to people with epilepsy and/or mood disorders; to people who have difficulty converting beta-carotene to Vitamin A and similar polymorphisms; and to all children?
Speaking of children, this is a sample meal plan provided by the Physician’s Committee for Responsible Medicine for children ages 1-4:
Breakfast: Oatmeal with applesauce, calcium–fortified orange juice
Lunch: Hummus on crackers, banana, soymilk, carrot sticks
Dinner: Corn, mashed sweet potatoes, steamed kale, soymilk
Snacks: Peaches, Cheerios, soymilk
Please note the use of fortified Soymilk, Cheerios, and Orange Juice in lieu of whole foods. To me, this looks like a nutrient-sparse diet that requires the addition of synthetically-fortified processed foods of questionable quality to meet even minimal nutritional requirements for some nutrients, such as protein, zinc, iron, etc. while remaining deficient in other nutrients. Does this look like an optimal diet for 1-4 year old children to you? How, if at all, might you modify it?
Would you be willing to share what your personal diet/caloric intake would look like in a typical week and in what region of the country you reside? Also, if you take any supplements? I think it might be instructive. Thanks in advance for considering this request!
Also, you may be aware that people who try veganism tend to be more educated and health-conscious than the average person…..Does it seem reasonable to conclude that the tremendous number of people who do not thrive on plant-only diets were just too ignorant to realize that they should be eating a variety of complete whole foods? What about people like Dr. Chris Masterjohn, Robb Wolf, Melissa McKewen, Denise Minger….do they just strike you as a bunch of dummies who ate Boca Burgers all day long and forgot about their veggies?
Finally, evidence does suggest that vegan children on average suffer more from various sub-clinical deficiencies, even when compared to their counterparts, who tend to eat massive amounts of processed and nutritionally-empty food. I would be curious to know your interpretation of this as well. Thanks!
Hi Karin, when time permits, I will address your thoughtful note properly. But in a nutshell, yes, i am very confident my thoughts are generally applicable. We all like to think we are unique, but the reality is we are so very alike via our dna, that we have universal truths.
Health is but a snapshot of our biosystem at any given time. Every single cell is replaced within a period of time, and is replaced via the nutrients you absorb. Each cell contains the blueprints for what *it* requires and it does not forget.
Just like we should not judge a person for their past but for their present, we should also bathe our cells in the nutrients it needs for harmonious existence. As well, if you don’t allow your gut bacteria to form properly, you will never ever be healthy. Our bodies are remarkable machines, and each health issue is a story, one driven deeper to manifest in a new way if you simply drive it away with most modern meds. cheers..
I’d also like to add that DNA makes a huge difference in performance. I will never be an olympic athlete or the strongest man on earth but Im 6.3, 200lbs and in pretty fair shape I would say. What makes me 6.3 and the meat eater standing in line next to me, 5ft10 and 150L? What makes the basket ball player over 7ft?
Eating meat doesn’t make you strong, no more than taking steroids is going to make you the next Mr Olympia… (nothing wrong with that). Im just saying. People seem to be brainwashed that if they eat meat, workout, and stick their ass with drugs, they will become Mr Olympia.
I recall watching the movie “Pumping Iron” with Arnold, Lou and all the top bodybuilders back then… its a sad story really. There was one guy in that circuit that did “all the right things” ate meat 5 times a day, omelettes with 25 eggs, pumped his body with steroids (all about him him him) – NEVER won a contest.
What do you do with all those hours, all that hard work at THAT level of competition if you don’t win?
I mean, its nice to feel good about yourself with big muscles I guess (me me me) if thats what makes you happy but this guy was on a world level of competition and never won. If it was me, I would be devastated.
Sorry guys but lets face the facts, not everyone will be the top bodybuilder, or fastest runner etc. REGARDLESS of how much meat you eat, how much drugs you take, how many countless hours you spend in the gym. DNA has 90% to do with this.
Veganism is not a “diet” its a lifestyle. One that takes the focus off of me me me all the time.
When I started on my journey, I did so basically on a challenge. I thought, “I can do that” (go without meat for 30 days) piece of cake.
In those 30 days, I changed. I started to really pay attention to whats going on in the world, the animals that are being “bred for food”…
have you seen Tom Cruises War of the Worlds? this movie looks at what it would be like if the tables were turned on humans and some alien race with far superior intelligence, harvested us for “food”.
then I starred to see the impact on the environment, and on our personal health.
I’ve never looked back. Its not like we are giving something up, we are gaining sooo much more.
I thank God, or the “higher Power whatever it may be that I was able to buck the trend for that initial 30 days.
I went against family and friends and all my gym buddies back then who were all about “protein” which they assumed only came from animals.
its so liberating to be able to see things from “this side” I pray that I can inspire even one to look at the benefits.
I wish someone told me many years before.,, but then I was not ready for it back then. When I was young you couldn’t tell me anything lol.
I’m 48 years old. I’ve been off meat for over a decade.. off all animal products for last two years as well. Ive never been lethargic, havent been sick in years, don’t work out very often but I can still push 4 plates (225l). Never been on steroids… haven’t even used protein powder in about 5 years, something I used to do regularly.
Yes humans can likely eat anything. There are people in Guinness book of records that ate nails and glass.
Yes, probably some cavemen watched a carnivore eating another animal.. All they knew back then was monkey see monkey do, so they probably tried the same.
It was likely hard for them to catch an animal and kill it with spears, so they likey picked at carcases left over from the carnivors.
I know if i was a caveman, I would be more inclined to eat things that grew, fruits, berries, root vegetables etc. They say all mankind emanated from Africa, which is a land rich in these foods. those that migrated from there, likely took on the roles of animals that lived in the areas they migrated to.
Does it mean they were right? Of course not. The average life expectancy of early man was under 30 years.
So “can we get by” eating dogs and cats? of course we probably can. Is it ideal for us? Absolutely not.
Today, for the first time in the recorded history of man, we internet to share scientific information. The findings startle many people because its contrary to what most of us were brought up knowing.
Wasn’t that long ago that smoking was looked at as “cool” and it was advertised all over magazines and 50’s tv ads.. “Blow smoke in her face and she will love you forever”. Of course we know today that its bad for us yet people still do it in spite of the facts.
Today, the strongest man in the world is a vegan as well as gold medal olympic athletes, football players, basketball players, boxers… Herschel Walker is a vegan. He was 50 when he took up MMA (mixed martial arts) he runs 8 miles a day does 1000’s of pushups and sit-ups daily!
And millions of “regular folks” like myself, all fairing well without the misery, blood, death, cruelty, co-lateral damage to the planet.
So if we can “survive” on A OR B.. why would anyone knowingly choose the dark side?
I was a meat eater like millions of others and I quit “cold turkey” Im sure if I can do it, anyone can.
P/
So you — just like “the strongest man in the world” — did NOT build your current physique as a vegan…
AND your personal story does not detract from the precautionary tone of this blog post, which starts with the title “Why You Should Think Twice About Vegetarian and Vegan Diets” … with careful reading, you might just make out that is does not say “Why no-one should ever eat a vegan diet”
I am also doing far more than just “surviving” and I am also against disrespect for life.
“did NOT build your current physique as a vegan…”
no this is true but many have been brought up without eating animals or animal products. To them there was no different and today they are alive and well.
There are many today on my facebook feed that were born vegans.
It is as odd to them to see others eating harvested animals as it is for most of us to see the Chinese eating cats and dogs.
I recall going to the wedding of my sister’s friend over 30 years ago. This couple (a drop dead gorgeous couple) already had a child and decided to get married. The baby was maybe 6-9 months old at the time. The couple were vegans before I even knew what the term meant. I was about 18 at the time and asked them, back in those days about deficiencies for the baby but the baby was quite healthy and normal and quiet not crying like many do.
They knew about all this way back then, before internet, before it was “socially acceptable”.
I wish someone would have coached me on it back then!!
But its not a “new thing” There were many before their time… Historic people like;
Plato
Socrates
Albert Einstein
Leo Tolstoy
David Thoreau Henry David Thoreau
Emerson
Benjamin Franklin
Alexander Pope
Sir Issac Newton
Pythagoras
Gandhi
Leonardo Da Vinci[14]
Voltaire
Milton
Charles Darwin
Schweitzer
Percy Byssche Shelly
Mary Shelly
George Bernard Shaw
Abraham Lincoln
Confusius
Nikola Tesla
Seneka
to name a few.
Bill Pearl won every major bodybuilding competition there was in the 60-70’s without meat..(he’s a vegetarian, still eats eggs) he did all this before internet. Today hes in his 80s and still trains daily and trains others in Venice CA.
The internet has brought this information worldwide. Do you think the television, which is supported by the restaurant chains and rich people are going to be promoting this? this is why the general public is only now seeing this information. It was just not possible to publically broadcast this even as little as 15 years ago.
Growing up I too used to make fun of vegans and vegetarians… “whats for dinner? grass again?” or “your supposed to smoke the grass not eat it” and the list went on.
Now I am one. Hows that for ironic?
Phil,
I know I’m going to regret this……but what was your source for the list of these famous vegan/vegetarians? Facts are pretty important to me. Someone is pulling a fast one you, Phil.
Also, do you care to explain how you came to this fascinating conclusion that, since you can be healthy as a vegan, anyone can?
I know a mother whose daughter has sensitivities to a wide range of legumes and nuts. Care to offer a meal plan for this girl? Thanks, Phil!
http://vegan.wikia.com/wiki/Famous_Vegans_and_Vegetarians
I’ve seen in stated (on vegetarian sites incidentally) that Albert Einstein was likely only a vegetarian (not a vegan) for the last year of his life. So what?
Listing these famous people as if that adds any weight to your argument, is about as meaningful and convincing to me as the questions around Hitler’s religious beliefs.
It’s great that you have made your own lifestyle choices… please respect others to do the same for their own reasons.
My reasons..? try reading some of my other comments.
How many differing ways can one say:
Vegetarianism Veganism
The two are NOT related in today’s definition. When the term was coined decades ago, it was effectively equivalent. Not today.
Eating vegetarian is not healthy. Period. Dairy and whatever else you decide is allowable is detrimental to your health. Period. It will acidify your body and casein will promote cancer without restraint.
Eating vegan, varied and complete, with whole foods, as raw as possible and your body will alkalize and your health will return provided you exercise moderately, sleep well, remove stress from your life and gets real sunshine.
The rest of the anger in this thread, and the desire to maintain cruelty to animals, is a model for how our society allows for the status quo to continue with lack of personal accountability and continuance of that which would hold no water without current context.
You were doing good but you just had to ruin it with that final snobby, condescending paragraph. And vegans wonder why people have an unfavorable view of them……
My apologies if the raw truth of the matter is unsettling.
Nice thought-terminating cliche. “I’m sorry the truth (my opinion) upsets you so much….” Gotta love that d-bag vegan snark.
Exactly. This is what I cannot stand about the vegans I know as well. I don’t want anything to do with them after a while. I find it insulting to be called a bad person in any way, shape or form – if I eat an animal protein, even to the best of my ethical decision making process. I eat mostly vegetarian with some animal protien here and there, but veganism made me sick. It was not for me. I tried everything with it and I lost my energy over time. But I was treated like a sell-out or a bad person and that just made me mad. I can’t stand vegans now for this reason alone. They always get around to insinuating that the rest of us are barbarians. For what? being part of the food chain? I just also got tired of them going on and on about vegan canine diets as well….
I believe the most interesting thing about this article is when he mentions the genetic precursors for certain individuals to convert plant based vitamin sources more efficiently then others. This brings up an important point which isn’t mentioned here, what if there is no “better diet”, what if it just depends on each persons individual makeup? Some people tolerate being vegan/vegetarian while others don’t…what if we just left it up for the individual to decide? I know for myself that without ALOT of protein, I get depressed, lethargic and tired. I understand being vegetarian and vegan to try to positively impact the world, but my functioning was so decreased while I was vegetarian I couldn’t really be of any help or service to anyone…not even myself. Maybe I didn’t do it right, maybe I’ll try it again in the future, but for now for some reason I have an intuition that for my body, eating animals and animal products in a balanced way feels right (although I believe dairy products can cause inflammation for people with health problems). Instead of debating this with me, lets focus on what we know and have in common. Increasing vegetable intake is a complete no brainer for better health. Let’s spread the truth that processed foods, sugary foods, GMO’s, and pesticides are terrible for us and the environment. Let’s treat animals with respect and have them graze on open pasteur, eating their natural diet, free from slaughterhouses, confinement, antibiotics and hormones. We are being so unproductive by arguing!
Thanks for the well thought out article, Chris. There is an interesting response to it at http://www.theveganrd.com. I think it would be wonderful if you responded to Ms. Messina’s points , in order to continue a fact-based discussion of this important topic.
I don’t know why people think everything has to be so cookie-cutter. I personally am a vegan and have been one for over a year and have had nothing but great benefit from it. It is RARE that I consume soy products or gluten grains, and grains in general are certainly not a staple in my diet (except perhaps quinoa).
I had a B12 deficiency BEFORE I became a vegan, back when I was regularly eating meat and dairy. According to my doctor, some people simply do not absorb it through animal products and require a supplement, and she said I was one of those people.
There is not one diet that is perfect for everyone. If there was, we wouldn’t need all the glorious food variety and options that we have. I am a vegan and love being vegan, but that does not mean it is the right diet for everyone. As such, I don’t try to push my belief system on others or tell them that their diet will lead to bad health (unless, of course, they are living on a diet of fast food and processed meats and grains!)
I believe that no matter what diet or lifestyle you choose to follow, you need to do your research and be aware of the potential pitfalls.
No matter what, we’re all trying to be healthy here and we care about what we put in our bodies. That’s (unfortunately) a lot more than most of America can say. So let’s encourage each other and build each other up, not fight over whose diet is better!
It’s not that vegans think people who eat meat are “meanies”, Colin. If you turn you thoughts to slavery for a moment you will realize that there were some people called abolitionists who felt that until slavery was ended in this country nothing that was built on it was right and business could not proceed as usual. Then there were the majority of people who argued pro and con based on their own cost/benefit ratio or simply whether it was what they were used to and comfortable with and couldn’t really consider any other way. You no doubt have a sense of the years and violence that went into changing the conversation and the reality on the ground.
There are people now who have the same view of the use and abuse of animals, who are innocent equal creatures and not made for man’s use, as slaves were not made for other men’s use. You can pull out the Bible, as people did then, to justify how black men were born to be slaves, as sons of Ham, and some probably still would argue a mistake was made in ending it, as people do to justify animal use, however it’s rather more than “meanies” who stood against slavery. If you can shift your context you can get a sense of what animal abolitionists are trying to convey. I have no doubt the battle will be as pitched as it was against human slavery, but also that in the long run the expansive moral arc of the universe tends toward the good (paraphrase) and for many reasons our direct use and abuse of animals must wane, especially in countries where this is not based on starvation need. Personally my line is drawn at if you own a cow and it has a calf and there’s some milk left over, go ahead and make cheese. I’m talking about factory farming primarily because of the scope, farming for fur, canned hunts, puppy mills, etc. Abusive use for personal gain.
“I’m talking about factory farming primarily because of the scope, farming for fur, canned hunts, puppy mills, etc. Abusive use for personal gain.”
None of which are defended on this thread.
In fact, almost everyone on this thread has gone out of his/her way to talk about just how horrific those things are, despite the fact that that is NOT the focus of the article.
Perhaps because you are relatively new to these realities, you assume that we are too. I’ve watched the videos and been to the stockyards, Erica. I’ve taken pictures of “battery hens”. I’ve personally cleaned up pigs and rescued chickens. I know what is going on.
As does (almost) every other person on this thread. We have consistently decried those things. So if you think that informing us that “meat eater=me and vegan=holistic” adds anything of substance to the conversation, then you are deeply misguided.
If, however, you have a plan of how to create a sustainable veganic agricultural system, I think that many of us would love to hear it.
I don’t see anyone here promoting factory farming.. quite the opposite in fact. So I suspect you are presenting a false dichotomy. Again trying to make this an emotion-charged discussion rather than rational reasoning.
So maybe try setting that aside for now and accept that many (most… all?) here agree that: the current system of abusive, cruel, unjustified and unsustainable factory farming (plus vast crop mono-culture) has to change?
In terms of all animals (including humans?) being “innocent equal creatures” where do you draw the line?
Mammals, birds, reptiles, fish, insects, microbes…? What about 1,000 year old giant sequoia trees?
ALL life on this planet (so far as is currently known) comes from the same common ancestor — animals AND plants.
I watched a show about Wales yesterday, where they showed a Yew tree in a Conwy graveyard that has been aged at 4,500 years.. it was growing when Stonehenge was being built and is still alive today!
I’ve also seen comments here about “minimizing harm” and that plants have no complex nervous system – like we do.
Key phrase that “like we do”…
Is that how we decide which life we need to borrow so that we can continue on for a while, until our life goes back into the general pool? Base it on anthropomorphic methods of deciding sentience, or value?
Sources have already been offered showing the growing field (hah) of research into how plants “sense” and interact or “behave” with their environment.. in many ways along the same lines as animals do… hardly surprising as we share a common ancestor.
@ Erica: Care to tell a black person to their face what you just told me? I’d love to see that go down. Evoking images of slavery just so you can gain the moral highground in a discussion about food is pretty ridiculous.
Also, you act like omnivores (btw, you’re an omnivore, too. you’re just living against your nature) hate animals and love to see them suffer…..or that we’re too ignorant and if only we had people like you to shame us into accepting your worldview. Grow up.
Basically the only reasons to go vegetarian or vegan is because of ethical reasons….or maybe the idea of eating meat turns your stomach. The health argument has never held water with me. Also, the dirty little secret of veganism is that many people (usually young females) are drawn to because it easily covers up their eating disorder.
Here’s an anecdote….I knew this girl who was normal and well-adjusted and then she became a radical vegan and now she thinks she’s a transsexual cat named George. I’m not kidding. Vitamin deficiencies are no joke. They can literally drive you crazy.
http://www.zoeharcombe.com/2014/03/animal-protein-as-bad-as-smoking/
“Call me suspicious, but I always check for conflicts of interest and the lead researcher, Dr Longo, has declared interests in (actually, he’s the founder of) L-Nutra – a company that makes ProLon™ – an entirely plant based meal replacement product.”
And it was not just Valter D. Longo but three others of the authors (Sebastian Brandhorst, Priya Balasubramanian and Luigi Fontana) also working for L-Nutra…
http://www.l-nutra.com/index.php/about/team
And what about our oceans?
http://n.pr/1eI48ua
http://youtu.be/Bo_f8mV5khg (beautiful interlude amongst all the brain work)
And:
Worldwide, over 25% of all the world’s fish stocks are either overfished or depleted.
Another 52% are fully exploited.
(Fully exploited: the number of fish taken out equals the number being born; Any further increase in fish caught will lead to overfishing, and then to collapse.)
Fish farming is not a viable solution.
*Above stats from State of World Fisheries and Aquaculture (SOFIA) can be found on http://www.fao.org/sof/sofia/index_en.htm
I just don’t need to eat fish/seafood/fish oil – this is just my personal choice. I know and love people who do but even they eat less than before.
http://www.naturaleater.com/science-articles/Paleolithic-Nutrition-Twenty-Five%20Years-Later-Eaton.pdf
“Reduction of carbohydrates to extremely low levels is not consistent with the HG model, but neither is a very high CHO, “meat as a condiment”–type diet; furthermore, CHO sources are important. HG CHO came from fruit, vegetables, and nuts, not from grains. Refined, concentrated CHOs such as sucrose played virtually no role, and the consumption of plant CHO necessarily resulted in high fiber intake. If we were to rebuild the food pyramid along HG lines, the base would not be grains but fruits and vegetables, which could be chosen to provide adequate fiber content. The second tier would be meat, fish, and low-fat dairy products, all very lean. Whole grains might come next (although even these were very unusual for HGs), whereas fats, oils, and refined carbohydrates would occupy the same very small place at the top, essentially functioning as condiments in a healthy diet. These guidelines would not exactly replicate the HG diet in terms of food categories, but it would do so roughly in terms of macronutrients.”
SO — all hunter gatherers around the globe ate the same things??? Not likely
That’s what Melvin Konner, MD, PhD and S. Boyd Eaton, MD say in the article
Read it and offer criticism of their methods
“Read it and offer criticism of their methods”
It is obvious that not all geographic regions of the world offer the same food resources.
I prefer to think for myself, rather than unquestioningly accept the word of “experts”.
http://www.zoeharcombe.com/2014/03/animal-protein-as-bad-as-smoking/
For example…
>>Association between protein and mortality
This is a direct quotation from the article (my emphasis): “Using Cox Proportional Hazard models, we found that high and moderate protein consumption were positively associated with diabetes-related mortality, but not associated with all-cause, CVD [cardiovascular], or cancer mortality when subjects at all the ages above 50 were considered.”
i.e. when we looked at the 6,381 over 50 year olds there was not even an association with protein intake and all-cause mortality, or CVD mortality, or cancer mortality.
There was a relationship with diabetes mortality and protein intake, but the numbers were so tiny (one death from diabetes in one group) that this was not considered important.
And that could have been the headline – “There is no association between protein intake and mortality” – but then there would be no headline. <<
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/dmrr.2519/full
Ma-Pi 2 macrobiotic diet and type 2 diabetes mellitus: pooled analysis of short-term intervention studies
http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2014/01/nurtrion-news-quicky-energy-reduction.html
As you can see if you take a look at the typical diet composition of the subjects in the first, prospective trial (Porrata. 2009; see Table 2), the “macrobiotic” intervention was exclusively food based. It was composed of 40–50% whole grains (rice, millet and barley), 30–40% vegetables (carrots, kale, cabbage, broccoli, chicory, onions, red and white radish, parsley), and 8% legumes (adzuki beans, chickpeas, lentils, black beans), plus gomashio (roasted ground sesame seeds with unrefined sea salt), fermented products (miso, tamari, umeboshi) and seaweeds (kombu, wakame, nori).
Bancha tea (tannin-free green tea) was the main source of liquid. The food intake was measured using the weight method for 7 consecutive days in the 2nd and 4th months of the intervention. The same goes for the compliance with the recommended (100% idiotic) macronutrient composition, according to which the subjects had to consume 15%, 20% and 65% of total energy in form protein, fat and carbohydrates, respectively.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2989112/?report=classic
Conclusion
A low-carbohydrate diet based on animal sources was associated with higher all-cause mortality in both men and women, whereas a vegetable-based low-carbohydrate diet was associated with lower all-cause and cardiovascular disease mortality rates.
Discussion
In our two cohorts of U.S. men and women with up to 20-26 years of follow-up, we observed that the overall low-carbohydrate diet score was only weakly associated with all-cause mortality. However, a higher animal low-carbohydrate diet score was associated with higher all-cause and cancer mortality, while a higher vegetable low-carbohydrate score was associated with lower mortality, particularly CVD mortality.
Low-carbohydrate diets from animal and vegetable sources may have similar major macronutrient content, but the source of the macronutrients can result in large differences in dietary components that may affect mortality, such as specific fatty acids, protein, fiber, vitamins and minerals, and phytochemicals. Therefore, the associations that we observed are more likely to be mediated by these bioactive components rather the carbohydrate content.
In conclusion, consumption of a vegetable-based low-carbohydrate diet were associated with a lower risk of all-cause and CVD mortality whereas a high scores for the animal-based low-carbohydrate diet were associated with a higher risk of overall mortality. These results suggest that the health effects of a low-carbohydrate diet may depend on the type of protein and fat, and that a diet including mostly vegetable sources of protein and fat is preferable to a diet with mostly animal sources of protein and fat.
Dr. McDougall Criticizes Low-carb Diets (And Tells Why the Rice Diet Is Best)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOfF_r2R8QM
Published on Feb 26, 2014
Dr. John McDougall presents The Ultimate Diet Therapy at the February, 2014, Advanced Study Weekend and the Flamingo Resort in Santa Rosa, California.
http://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/abstract/S1550-4131%2814%2900062-X#Summary
Notably, our results showed that the amount of proteins derived from animal sources accounted for a significant proportion of the association between overall protein intake and all-cause and cancer mortality. These results are in agreement with recent findings on the association between red meat consumption and death from all-cause and cancer (Fung et al., 2010,Pan et al., 2012). Previous studies in the U.S. have found that a low carbohydrate diet is associated with an increase in overall mortality and showed that when such a diet is from animal-based products, the risk of overall as well as cancer mortality is increased even further (Fung et al., 2010,Lagiou et al., 2007). Our study indicates that high levels of animal proteins, promoting increases in IGF-1 and possibly insulin, is one of the major promoters of mortality for people age 50–65 in the 18 years following the survey assessing protein intake.
Although protein intake is associated with increased mortality for adults who were middle-aged at baseline, there was also evidence that a low protein diet may be hazardous for older adults. Both high and moderate protein intake in the elderly were associated with reduced mortality compared to that in the low protein group, suggesting that protein intake representing at least 10% of the calories consumed may be necessary after age 65 to reduce age-dependent weight loss and prevent an excessive loss of IGF-1 and of other important factors. In fact, previous studies have noted that an increased protein intake and the resulting increase in IGF-1 may prove beneficial in older adults (Heaney et al., 1999), and the switch from the protective to the detrimental effect of the low protein diet coincides with a time at which weight begins to decline. Based on previous longitudinal studies, weight tends to increase up until age 50–60, at which point it becomes stable before beginning to decline steadily by an average of 0.5% per year for those over age 65 (Villareal et al., 2005,Wallace et al., 1995). We speculate that frail subjects who have lost a significant percentage of their body weight and have a low BMI may be more susceptible to protein malnourishment. It is also possible that other factors such as inflammation or genetic factors may contribute to the sensitivity to protein restriction in elderly subjects, in agreement with our mouse studies.
In agreement with other epidemiological and animal studies (Estruch et al., 2013,Linos and Willett, 2007,Michaud et al., 2001,Willett, 2006), our findings suggest that a diet in which plant-based nutrients represent the majority of the food intake is likely to maximize health benefits in all age groups. However, we propose that up to age 65 and possibly 70, depending on health status, the 0.7 to 0.8 g of proteins/kg of body weight/day reported by the Food and Nutrition Board of the Institute of Medicine, currently viewed as a minimum requirement, should be recommended instead of the 1.0–1.3 g grams of proteins/kg of body weight/day consumed by adults ages 19–70 (Fulgoni, 2008). We also propose that at older ages, it may be important to avoid low protein intake and gradually adopt a moderate to high protein, preferably mostly plant-based consumption to allow the maintenance of a healthy weight and protection from frailty (Bartali et al., 2006,Ferrucci et al., 2003,Kobayashi et al., 2013).
Of mice and men… LOL
“Here, we combined an epidemiological study of 6,381 US men and women aged 50 and above from NHANES III, the only nationally representative dietary survey in the United States, with mouse and cellular studies to understand the link between the level and source of proteins and amino acids, aging, diseases, and mortality.”
Study says “dietary survey”… so NOT an RCT then…? I thought you subscribed to higher standards of research Charles?
Telegraph article says “Nutritional advice has traditionally focused on cutting down on fat, sugar and salt. The World Health Organisation will announce a consultation today suggesting that guidelines on sugar consumption should be lowered, but there have few warnings about excess protein.”
Call me skeptical but the timing of this report could not be better from the point of view of those with a ve$ted interest in the current $tatus quo
“The study population included 6,381 adults ages 50 and over from NHANES III, a nationally representative, cross-sectional study. Our analytic sample had a mean age of 65 years and is representative of the United States population in ethnicity, education, and health characteristics (Table S1).
On average, subjects consumed 1,823 calories, of which the majority came from carbohydrates (51%), followed by fat (33%) and protein (16%), with most of it (11%) derived from animal protein.”
51% of energy from carbs… but no question it’s the protein that’s doin’ ‘em in!
These comments by Professor Sanders are helpful. It seems remarkable that the study would not control for variables such as smoking.
Prof Tom Sanders, Head of the Nutritional Sciences Research Division, King’s College London, said:
“The headline of the press release from the University of Southern California is running ahead of the evidence, and the comparison with smoking is really unwarranted in terms of the relative risks and the certainty of the adverse effects of smoking. The study shows a relationship with growth factor IGF-1 and cancer risk which is already known. However, the relationship between IGF-1 levels and protein intake is far more tenuous in humans. Cross-sectional data i.e. omnivores vs vegans suggest animal protein to be associated with increased IGF-1 levels but there is a lack of evidence from controlled feed studies to show that IGF-1 levels fall when animal protein intake is restricted. Much of the supporting work is based on studies in mice not humans. Dietary guidelines should not be based on animal experiments.
“Although the follow-up on the NHANES survey* shows that those with the highest reported protein intake were at greater risk of all-cause mortality, it fails to adjust for other confounding factors such as socioeconomic status, smoking, and obesity. The sample size is also modest at 6381, compared with over 448,568 in the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer which only found a weak association (14% increase in risk of mortality with red meat consumption, which was more consistent for processed meat (11% increase in risk)). The European data suggest a much smaller effect than the 74% increased risk claimed in this paper.
“Also, the study does not control for the overall balance of the diet. People who eat large amounts of animal proteins often have other aspects of their diet which are imbalanced such as low intakes of fruit and vegetables. I think the next step would be to show that changing protein intake in the range of normal human intakes influences IGF-1 levels. IGF-1 levels may well be programmed in early development and dietary protein intake in adult life may well be less important in later life. This would be consistent with the observation that accelerated growth in childhood is associated with increased height and a high risk of cancer in later life.”
Paul – I just want to say I respect your point of view and your actions and out of the hundreds of comments here it is the only one I’ve seen that balances the two sides. I’m tending towards being an ethical vegan based on the fact that the meat I would eat would all be CAFO, or “happy” grass with CAFO slaughter. Many people aren’t at the point where they can really sort these issues appropriately onto a continuum and integrate them into
a logical framework. If you’ve made the leap to ethical veganism you are past the point where supplementing with B12 is going to move you. If you eat meat ethics hasn’t really occurred to you as the issue, and the conversation has been only about personal micronutrient one-upmanship. Personally I respect your decision to hunt if you want to eat meat – it’s healthier meat – and you are owning your own actions. The largest issue with CAFO’s is not that man ate meat in the past, or that animals kill each other in the wild – the largest issues are the violence, the slavery and abuse, and the misuse of antibiotics secondarily to that violence – nothing you couldn’t tell me as well.
FrankG – you have been trolling this discussion since Day 1, for several weeks now, trying to incite anyone you can get a hold of to argue with you. Funny quote for you “Who knew that we’d be holding a device that had the information of the world at our fingertips and we’d use it to look at pictures of cats and to argue with strangers.” Don’t respond. I’m done.
And yet you failed to answer any of the direct question put to you… while you persistently misrepresent the views of those you colour as “the other side”.
My choices are not simply based on what is best for my own health, or my nutrient choices… I take a much wider and dare I say ethical view, of my carefully considered decisions.
Just a thought or more like a nightmare I’ve had for years. You are familiar with CAFOs…so if you took that to its ultimate conclusion I can see a system that produces boxed meat. Its not a sentient animal starting out on a farm eating grass but starts in box with input hoses for nutrients and output hoses for waist. They are all stackable. They all start the same…Pork, beef, or chicken is selected in the control room via algorithm that reads the market demand. At maturity the hoses are taken off and a fork truck picks up pallets or tons of meat ready to be sliced in your kitchen.
Ok, I want off the planet now.
The problem i see with almost all young vegetarians that I know, their practice is to just take out meat and other animal products. That leaves a huge and dangerous hole in their diets. Cheese pizza, pizza roles, and cheese Mac is not good vegetarian practice. They just eat junk. They don’t know how to cook and they are too busy to study the practice correctly.
They have vague, fuzzy and not well developed ideas on virtue and health and they settle into eating highly processed garbage.
The way I see it, the only real reason to go Veg is spiritual, and that in and of itself is legitimate. Animal compassion is part of human nature and is again legitimate. I bow to and honor vegetarianism. However I am an omnivore. I hunt dear. I thought that if I was going to continue being one I should have the knowledge, skill, and spiritual nuts to kill my own food. How many omnivores kill or witness the killing of animals for food? I will not criticize vegetarians.
However we are “trapped” in a paleo body and we have to make choices.
I was on the bubble until I read Michael pollan’s book ” The Omnivores Dilemma”. He talks about this, but my takeaway was the aspect of the kill. My deer are wild animals and I practice “fair chase” and I do not kill unless it is as clean and swift as possible. I can pass if need be. I know a vegetarian may not understand this…it’s still killing, but Pollan has a proper (for me anyway) take on this, which is to say that killing a wild animal through fair-chase is as about as “good” as it gets when com paired to the CAFO system and if I remain a meat eater then I need to do it myself if I can. I will say that it is not easy for those of us that are not deluded.
I have a real concern that, Based upon Pollan’s book the Paleo movement how are we to sustain omnivoreism and do it correctly. I can not even get grass-beef locally, and how long will the fisheries last if everyone went back to our paleo roots? CAFO animal systems make meat cheap and plentiful but is it worth eating and it’s harming our bodies and the planet. The planet can not afford the acreage it takes to grass raise animals. Vegetarianism is at least more sustainable in the medium run until CAFO style plant factories start pumping out lousy veggies. What can sustain seven billion humans?
“The planet can not afford the acreage it takes to grass raise animals.”
Much grazing-land worldwide is not suitable for any other kind of agriculture, and raising livestock on pasture (or even very poor land) adds to the topsoil in a sustainable way; as opposed to growing plants which depletes the soil.
I do fear that there are just too many humans on the planet but I don’t see this as an issue of rearing animals but rather the senseless and greedy waste of non-renewable resources such as fossil fuels; which currently, artificially buoy up an unsustainable system. In this latter regard, the vast mono-cultures of crops are just as much a problem as the CAFOs
I do applaud your attitude to hunting and can personally relate. I think that being in touch with my true human nature and recognising my place in the ecosystem is essential to our future survival. I do not think that killing and eating animals is in any way hypocritical.. quite the opposite in fact.
Regardless of how we do it, we need to look at more options not previously considered. We have a very narrow plant/animal food inventory. You can’t raise enough grass-beef…the quality requirements for grass are much too stringent if we want to convert it into quality human nutrition. Same for plant based systems.
Monsanto moves in and either steals the gene pool or wipes it out in order to sell their own gene pool. Every corner of the globe will need to supply indigenous food on every acre it will grow on, problem is, free market globalization may not support that kind of cultural autonomy.
In the long run we may have to loose our love for food as a passion. In order to feed billions of people we will need frankenfoods.
“…the quality requirements for grass are much too stringent if we want to convert it into quality human nutrition.”
On the contrary, herbivores are far more efficient at turning poor soil and what grows in it, into quality human nutrition (while simultaneously improving that soil for sustainable growth) than we currently are with our wasteful and unsustainable use of non-renewable resources.
Paul,
As a former ethical “vegan”, who changed my position only after I realized that my position was both intellectually and morally bankrupt, I appreciate where you’re coming from.
From my perspective, the best current personal options we have for compassionate living are either supporting permaculture-based systems that are using livestock or returning to the wild and hunting for ourselves, as you describe. There is no viable vegan option, as far as I can see.
I have a degree in crop and soil science, and I’ve asked people to share with me a plan about how we could possibly have a NON animal-based food system. And no one has offered even a rough outline of a plan. I don’t mean to be patronizing to anyone, but I feel the need to drive the point home: Where do you think that we get the nutrients to replace those that are removed when we harvest the plants?
Almost all of the produce that you buy is dependent on CAFO’s. This article will give you a rough idea of what I’m talking about:
http://www.biofortified.org/2013/12/organic-farming-reliant-on-synthetic-nitrogen/
That is the most likely reason that arsenic got into the “organic” rice…..the big organic manufacturers buying the chicken manure from the CAFO’s. (The chicken manure had arsenic because the giant poultry people were actually feeding it to the chickens!) So if you buy “vegan” food from the typical grocery store you are almost always supporting the folks who profit from the WORST POSSIBLE treatment of animals.
This is why I contend that, short of hunting, gardening, and gathering food for yourself, the best current way to support BETTER treatment of animals is to buy all food DIRECTLY from small farmers who incorporate animals into their own system.
I don’t know what you have already read thus far in this discussion, so I’m not going to repeat myself, but I do submit to you that compassionate living is highly context-dependent. So, it’s quite different to be a “vegan” living in Florida than a “vegan” Inuit. The latter is deluded if he actually thinks that having fresh produce delivered to his door is more ethical/compassionate than just killing and eating the fish around him. (I’m sure that this is probably obvious to you, but believe it or not, this is perceived as a reactionary and “self-centered” idea to some on this forum).
This is one reason that I’m so passionate about opposing “veganism” in its current incarnation, and put the word in quotes. The reality is that I don’t believe I’ve ever met an actual vegan!
“Companionate living” first requires educating and empowering women in order to slow population growth, then religions need a ground shaking awakening in its “dominion” dogmas and then local people need to be allowed to raise there own crops, and the lust for western consumerism needs to burn out.
Paul,
Yes, I agree. Preferably all of those things at once.
Denise Minger and Chris Kresser are real people… inherent in that is a certain level of accountability to what they write and post… up to and including, potentially legal liability for any advice they may give. The research they offer is based on the scientific method.. open to critical scrutiny. the vegan agenda on the other hand is driven by emotion rather than unbiased reason. Just as witnessed in the comments section here.
If the research on PP’s site is valid, then it will be available elsewhere, without a strong vegan slant put onto it.
That you fail to see (or accept) my concerns regarding PP, underlines for me your lack of credibility in these matters.
I respectfully disagree with you on many points you just made.
And you still did not answer my question, but it appears as though the research you have done is reading blogs – Kresser and Minger to name 2 you site. Thats ok, it is just not enough for me.
My other response is awaiting moderation but in short I owe you no explanation. I am well read and convinced of what I know. You claiming to be “OpenMinded” while persisting in promoting an obviously biased blogger, leaves me in little doubt as to your true agenda here.
Nope, I was sharing a link for those who might be interested. All bloggers are biased for they are people.
…but some are more people than others.
…and some are more biased than others.
Sure Chris Kresser and Denise Minger (as examples) based on their current convictions, may have a certain slant towards Paleo, LCHF, WAPF, or whatever, but fundamentally they are still wiling to follow wherever the data leads.
Vegan “science” starts and ends with “killing animals is wrong”… such dogma prevents a person following the data in an unbiased fashion.
Did your response ever go through-I don’t see it? If not can you re-post?
See your response now and Wow. Sorry, this is simply not true whether you eat meat or not: per you “Vegan “science” starts and ends with “killing animals is wrong”… such dogma prevents a person following the data in an unbiased fashion.”
But it does tell me why you never answered my question as to where you do your research -you apparently don’t. If you did at least read research you find data/research not based on the premise you state but rather trying to find out pieces to better health – hate to break it to you – no one has all the answers.
“…hate to break it to you – no one has all the answers.”
Where exactly do you see me claiming any different?
Do you think that spouting platitudes makes you sound wise or something?
The scientific method is driven forward by questions… if all the answers were ever found, it would stop..! that is why dogma (such as veganity) is the antithesis of science.
You honestly expect me to believe that I could search the PCRM or PP site and find research that promoted animal-products as healthy alternatives, without, at the very least, some commentary or opinion “debunking” such a study?
“Where exactly do you see me claiming any different?”
You constantly do this by claiming that researchers present findings in favor of the value of eating plants can be dismissed on the basis: (1) “Vegan “science” starts and ends with “killing animals is wrong”… such dogma prevents a person following the data in an unbiased fashion.” (2) “expecting unbiased research from such an agenda is like expecting unbiased information on race-relations from a bunch of neo-nazis”. for 2 examples. This way of thinking is may be helpful to others but not to me personally.
You make no logical sense, it seems pointless trying to have any kind of discussion with you… I was responding to your platitude that “…hate to break it to you – no one has all the answers.”
I agree that no-one has all the answers.
I take issue with vegan dogma because they THINK that they DO have the answers. They are wrong.
My position (and that of the scientific method) is open to change if/as further evidence is presented. Up to and including the possibility (no matter how remote it may currently seem) that becoming a vegan may be best for me and the planet.
A dogmatic vegan who believes that “killing animals is wrong” resists any attempt at revising that attitude in the same way that a new earth creationist resists any attempt to convince them (with evidence) that the Earth is over 4 billion years old and we have evolved from simpler lifeforms. Hard to reason with blind faith and emotion-based choices.
I personally want to make the most informed decision and try to separate out fact from opinion. Kresser also advocates for supplements for animal eaters – so whats the point here. I don’t know of any woman, with means, that doesn’t take prenatal vitamins and give their children vitamins. So take a vitamin if you want to.
But what we eat has so many variables including culture, beliefs, money tied to our stance, etc. Reading through the posts, I am surprised how those that eat meat/animal products – think that this is not the norm that science has not been “on their side” so to speak. Looking at the history of food, in the US at least, it is the vegans/vegetarians that have been on the fringes and remain there (although their numbers are growing). Even researchers who have found saturated fats and high cholesterol, etc. may lead to disease – still eat/ate it. Human behavior is so interesting to say the least.
For those research-minded who don’t have time to research every article cited in the Paleo circles, check out http://www.plantpositive.com. A large body of work from a nutritional researcher that at least raises some educated perspectives.
Right… so be “OpenMinded”, make an informed decision (just so long as it is the *right* one.. wink wink) and as we know you are all too busy to do your own research, let a vegan tell you what to think.. OK?
You jump very quickly to conclusions about people. I really am doing my own research, including reading Kresser’s site, Plant Positive, PubMed, Medline, etc. I also own and have read too many books on both sides to list here but including The Paleo Diet, Primal Body Primal mind, Vegetarian Myth, China Study, Reversing Heart Disease, The Seduction of Food, The Spectrum, etc.
So it sounds like you do your own research too, what sources do you use besides Kresser?
“You jump very quickly to conclusions about people.”
Actually my default position is that there is goodness in all people and I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt… on the other hand I have read enough to learn when someone is trying to pull the wool over my eyes. Momma didn’t raise no fool…
You see what really gets me thinking is why the need to play games and hide, if you have the truth on your side?
Here we have someone calling themselves “OpenMind” earlier we had “OnTheFence”.. both with obvious vegan agendas. Then there is my favourite [Vegan] Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine…
I don’t take issue with anyone having an vegan agenda or point of view — that is your right to have and mine to disagree with — but if it is based in truth, facts, unbiased research etc… then surely it ought to speak for itself without resorting to subterfuge.
You stand a better chance of convincing me without playing games. Do you really have such a low opinion of others that you think them so easily hoodwinked into reading a site like PP? The end justifies the means perhaps? It’s for their own good maybe?
Sure there are lots of words on that site, plenty of quotes and links to research etc… (makes me wonder how it is all financed.. who has a vested interest in such an anonymous project?) BUT also an overriding amount of agenda-driven interpretation of that research and just plain opinion… verbiage which quite frankly I am not willing to wade through to try and sift for the facts. Much less so after such an underhanded attempt to trick me into reading there.
Oh see my comment above. I am not trying to convince you or anyone – just sharing a site that shows the research, encourages one to look it up and read it for themselves- no hoodwinking.
I did find he says when it is his opinion but shows/sites the actually research for all to see. I guess you are not reader/listener “verbiage which quite frankly I am not willing to wade through to try and sift for the facts.” All the diet books and blogs are full of opinion smattered with fact.
Are you PlantPositive? Otherwise how do you know that this anonymous but crazily prolific blogger and YouTube poster (70 hours worth?!?) is a “nutritional researcher that at least raises some educated perspectives” …because he is not willing to share who he is or what qualifies him.
Once again, the truth has no need to hide behind subterfuge and anonymity.
I am not PlantPositive. I personally don’t care that he is anonymous because he is showing research I can look up – see for myself – he is not selling a book he has to defend, site is not monetized, etc.
You didn’t answer my question “So it sounds like you do your own research too, what sources do you use besides Kresser?” and you are anonymous too.
If anyone else cares -I will include here to save a hoodwinking click to the website but is found under FAQs:
It was not a mere oversight that I left my name off of all my material. I have made the choice to remain anonymous. Since I don’t make money or personally benefit from this project there is no incentive for me to expose myself to all the negativity that would surely follow a disclosure of my identity (I have received more than enough flak as it is). I make no money from defending veganism and I never have. I have no affiliation with any animal rights organization. Not only have I provided you with references for everything I say, I have shown you actual pictures and scans of the relevant material in those references so you don’t need to track them down yourself. As I write this I don’t know of any advocate for Paleo/low-carb/saturated fat/cholesterol, etc. who has done any of these things with such scale and consistency. In addition, I maintain an active errata page.
Yes I read that FAQ and see no mention of “nutritional researcher” or “educated”…
Prove to me that the site is not funded by those with a vested interest. Who else has the time and money (just the access to studies is not cheap) to support such an effort?
I may be anonymous but I am not a blogger… I post under the same alias everywhere I post and I think that my comments speak for themselves. I make no claim to be an “expert”
I agree that all blogs books etc… have opinion interlaced with fact… my concern is being able to go in with the clear understanding that I am reading from an agenda-driven point of view (and vegan is very much agenda-driven) and not the way you are trying to portray it as if it were unbiased.
I don’t trust PP and I think you lack credibility.
Still didn’t answer my question as to who/how/where you do your research?
For me, I don’t have trouble with knowing the credentials of PlantPositive, he shows the research articles. Also, as you have said before when defending Minger – it doesn’t matter. I was sharing a researched based site in case anyone wanted to take a look is all.
I don’t see that I owe you any explanation. I am comfortable with my own level of research and my own convictions on these topics.
So far as I am concerned you should feel free to share whatever you like… just be honest about it, or you can expect to be called on it.
Frank, seriously? You would sit back there behind your computer and wonder as to the motivations and possibly “hidden” funding being a vegan-oriented site, and consider it nefarious?
And you don’t use the same logic for everything else you see regarding food, regarding medicine, regarding things like diabetes and cancer, chemo et al?
Sometimes we must shake our heads collectively at the ridiculous efforts to maintain the same-ole same-ole.
Find ANY experienced heart surgeon that will undergo surgery prior to consulting with a plant-based specialist for his or her own health, and then perhaps we can talk.
Where exactly do you see me NOT applying the same critical scrutiny to ALL “expert” advice?
Veganity is an ideology… as I wrote in a comment below…
‘…[the scientific method] follows wherever the data leads.
Vegan “science” starts and ends with “killing animals is wrong”… such dogma prevents a person following the data in an unbiased fashion.’
http://healthland.time.com/2014/02/24/7-reasons-vegetarians-live-longer/
Same source…
“People who don’t eat vegetarian can still be very healthy, and a vegetarian diet comes with its own health risks. For instance, research has also shown that vegetarians are at a higher risk for iron deficiencies, and some experts question whether children who are raised vegetarian get the right amount of nutrients for their growing bodies. Making sure you get the right amount of nutrients is important, and keeping your physician in the loop about your eating habits can make sure you’re meeting all the requirements for good health.”
How irresponsible of you! A brand new meta-analysis does not seem to argue with what you are claiming here! Not that we don’t already have abundant evidence derived from countless studies supporting the health benefits of a plant-based diet, here is a new meta ananlysis just published in JAMA Internal Medicine, of 39 high quality studies with 21,…000 participants in 18 countries between 1900-2013, proving that vegetarians consistenly have lower blood pressure. While hypertension might seem harmless since it’s often presented without symptoms, overtime, it can can cause serious damage to our bodies – quietly. Some of those include damage to our arteries, heart, brain, eye, and kidneys. It is also one of the leading causes of stroke.
I think everything is okay in moderation.
Try to eat balanced, try to eat ‘clean’ healthy foods.
Look after yourself, workout and be happy!
Who cares if you are vegan, vegetarian or eat meat, or only white meat, or hate eggs, or dont like olives!
Find a balance, be happy in yourself, dont judge others for their choices and you will find yourself not being so uptight having to defend your own choices!
AND FYI I have been a vegan, current vegetarian and ate meat!
I still cook meat for my partner! I dont care!
Just be happy and try to do the right thing by YOUR health, not by the standards and opinions of others, or by articles written for a majority of people, not individuals (which we all are!)
You have no true facts to back what you are writing. An amino acid is an amino acid. Your body does not know the difference. The only leg you stand on is more protein per calorie. So what? B12 is found in soil that is why it is in meat, from grazing and eating plants. It can be supplemented quite easily. It is known that you are a paleo follower. Furthermore, you fail to mention the horrors that animals go through to become food. There is no such thing as humanely raised and slaughtered meat that is sold to the public. Articles like this are infuriating.
It is called local farms. My family owns one and knows many farmers in the surrounding states. They raise them in a field, let them graze on the land, and when in comes time to slaughter them, they it do it one at a time. That is life as it has always been. I am not a paleo follower, I stated in my article, that any restrictive diet is inefficient! Enjoy taking supplements! I will enjoy eating 8 eggs with yolk, 1.5lbs of meat every day, along with fruits, veges and grains. I have went to the doctor and have received numerous blood tests… Cholesterol levels are great, triglycerides levels are great, blood pressure, water and fat soluble micro-nutrient uptake efficient, etc…
My facts are the family members, random people’s family members, that grew up on farms eating meat and lard, and are living 95+ years, walking around and not in wheel chairs, enjoying life as life should be.
But do what makes you happy, I could give you all the facts in the world to support my view, as people have on here already. Nothing I say will change your view, I am ok with that. Like great people have said before me… More meat for me!!!
Vegans and Vegetarians, who believe they are being attacked when they are the ones judging others just the same, frustrate me greatly. As well as, argue, with a restrictive diet, that it is better than a non-restricted diet that includes: local, well treated and fed animals; variety of fruits and vegetables; nuts and seeds; and non-processed grains. Any food intake “diet” that restricts any whole food product, is inefficient. I do not care how healthy you feel, most, if not all vegetarians and vegans lack proper muscle and bone strength.
I am sure, the vegetarian or vegan that will argue with me, that has muscle, is taking supplements… And without supplements, the person that eats a variety of meat, fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, and grains; are the only people that will not be deficient in nutrients.
As a general guideline for daily protein intake:
–1 gram of protein per bodyweight in kg is needed in a Sedentary person, not doing anything; 1.2 – 2.0 grams of protein per bodyweight in kg is needed and recommended the more active a person is, and the stronger they want to be. If you just run and do not lift weights and tell me you cannot do squats, you further made my point, so thanks.
If you study those who grew up and work on farms, that eat all natural meat, veges, fruits, grains, etc; as stated above… Most always you here about them living 95 + years. Every older man or woman that I have talked to, and tell them about nonrestrictive diets, that has a parent or relative that was a farmer, stated that their relative lived 95 + years.
In conclusion, if you are skinny and feel healthy being a vegan or vegetarian, no matter what you say to justify your eating patterns, it is still a restrictive eating style, and inefficient in certain aspects. Any restrictive diet, is inefficient, even if it is not a vegetarian or vegan diet. So, this is not just a bash at those who are vegan or vegetarians, so don’t take it personally. Rather, take it in, understand, and accept it. You don’t have to change if you don’t want to, but stop trying to convince people that it is healthier to eat a restrictive way!!
Medical Doctor here….. I think it’s important to be able to critically appraise evidence and not just accept a reader’s interpretation of one particular study as truth. I was happy to see that someone posted a full rebuttal against this article (see above comment from Adam- Thanks, Adam!). Give it a read everyone, it might make you think twice about some of the arguments being made here.
So I read through a few of the comments, and finally got to a chance to take a look at Adam’s article, and I came across the following paragraph:
In his dismissal of Kresser’s comments about Vitamin A, Adam states:
“I was quite shocked to find Vitamin A in this list of possible nutrient deficiencies. Not surprisingly, the author does not provide links to any peer-reviewed publication, but rather links to a page by the Weston Price Foundation which is an organization known to advocate the consumption of animal products.”
This the same Adam who wrote this to one commenter:
“I judge all arguments based on scientific merit, regardless of what side they come from.”
And this to another:
“If all you can do is dismiss claims based on what side of the fence you think they are coming from, then frankly, I am not interested in debating anything with you.”
But somehow Adam feels comfortable dismissing Dr. Chris Masterjohn’s masterful work, with over 70 scientific references, because he doesn’t like the site where it appears. Does anyone else see the irony?
Back to the article. Adam then goes on to state: “Arguing Vitamin A deficiency because conversion of beta-carotene is inefficient is a massive over-simplification and is not an argument for eating meat that stands up to scrutiny.”
Well, let’s see:
Variability of the conversion of beta-carotene to vitamin A in women measured by using a double-tracer study design.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10837297
“Blood beta-carotene and vitamin A responses to oral beta-carotene are variable in humans. Some individuals are characterized as responders and others as low- or nonresponders.
Variability in conversion of beta-carotene to vitamin A in men as measured by using a double-tracer study design
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11976165
“The vitamin A activity of beta-carotene, even when measured under controlled conditions, can be surprisingly low and variable.”
The contribution of β-carotene to vitamin A supply of humans.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21957049
“We conclude that a safe vitamin A intake in general cannot be reached by consuming only one component (vitamin A or β-carotene) alone, even in Western countries where animal products are commonly available.”
Lipids and Vitamin A and E Status in Vegetarian Children
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15213372
“In the group of vegetarian children mean plasma concentration of vitamin A and E was statistically lower as compared to those in non-vegetarian children.”
The challenge to reach nutritional adequacy for vitamin A: β-carotene bioavailability and conversion–evidence in humans.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23053560
“β-Carotene is an important dietary source of vitamin A for humans. However, the bioavailability and vitamin A equivalency of β-carotene are highly variable and can be affected by food- and diet-related factors, including the food matrix, food-processing techniques, size of the dose of β-carotene, and the amounts of dietary fat, fiber,vitamin A, and other carotenoids in the diet as well as by characteristics of the target population, such as vitamin A status, nutrient deficiencies, gut integrity, and genetic polymorphisms associated with β-carotene metabolism. The absorption of β-carotene from plant sources ranges from 5% to 65% in humans. Vitamin A equivalency ratios for β-carotene to vitamin A from plant sources range from 3.8:1 to 28:1, by weight.”
Assessment and control of vitamin A deficiency: the Annecy Accords
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12221259
“Clinical trials and kinetic models indicate that young children in developing countries cannot achieve normal vitamin A status from plant diets alone. Fortification, supplementation, or other means of increasing vitamin A intake are needed to correct widespread deficiency. To improve the status of young infants, the vitamin A supplements provided to mothers during their first 6 wk postpartum and to young infants during their first 6 mo of life should be doubled.”
I think that these three statements bear repeating:
1. “The absorption of Beta carotene from plant sources ranges from 5% to 65% in humans.”
2. “Clinical trials and kinetic models indicate that young children in developing countries cannot achieve normal vitamin A status from plant diets alone.”
3. “We conclude that a safe vitamin A intake in general cannot be reached by consuming only one component (vitamin A or β-carotene) alone, even in Western countries where animal products are commonly available.”
So Dr. Bethany and Adam,
If 10,000 vegan pregnant women come to Adam’s site looking for nutritional information, and conclude based on the information provided there that there is no need to supplement with pre-formed Vitamin A, are you both comfortable with that? No potential problems there?
I don’t think Mr. Kresser is arguing that ALL vegetarians or ALL vegans are going to be deficient in any particular nutrient. I do think that he is arguing that SOME are…..because they are getting information that is grossly oversimplified and overly generalized….with really tragic consequences for many. And I agree.
And if I’m the fetus of a low- or non-responder to beta-carotene, I might grow up to think that folks like you should have been a little more careful about dismissing the issue as trivial…..provided that I’m lucky enough to grow up and develop into a fully functioning adult, that is.
Humans are not all the same–they are both complex and special.
I am both shocked and horrified that I have to explain this to both an M.D. AND a PhD. candidate in the same place….
Hear hear Karin
because it bears repeating…
“So Dr. Bethany and Adam,
If 10,000 vegan pregnant women come to Adam’s site looking for nutritional information, and conclude based on the information provided there that there is no need to supplement with pre-formed Vitamin A, are you both comfortable with that? No potential problems there?
I don’t think Mr. Kresser is arguing that ALL vegetarians or ALL vegans are going to be deficient in any particular nutrient. I do think that he is arguing that SOME are…..because they are getting information that is grossly oversimplified and overly generalized….with really tragic consequences for many. And I agree.
And if I’m the fetus of a low- or non-responder to beta-carotene, I might grow up to think that folks like you should have been a little more careful about dismissing the issue as trivial…..provided that I’m lucky enough to grow up and develop into a fully functioning adult, that is.”
And the veg*n response we keep getting to this line of reasoning..? “You weren’t doing it right” For shame!
Yes, beta-carotene conversion from plants is low. Yes, vegans tend to have lower Vitamin A status compared to omnivores. Beta-carotene is only one of hundreds of different carotenoids in plants. To equate low beta-carotene conversion with Vitamin A deficiency is an error. If you do that, you’re no better than people that infer causation from studies showing correlation between meat consumption and heart disease.
The fact that children in developing countries are deficient is not surprising. Vitamin A status is not only affected by dietary intake, but by the health of the individual – infection can negatively affect Vitamin A levels, and repeated infections can deplete stores over time.
http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FBJN%2FBJN27_02%2FS0007114572001199a.pdf&code=edfb306fca01e3cabb451e4f5abcf862
In addition, children get most of their Vitamin A from their mother’s breast milk. If the mother is deficient, then the deficiency can easily be passed on to the next generation. If we add to the mix the fact that poverty is common in developing countries, food selection is less diverse than developed nations, and access to health care is sub-par, it’s pretty easy to see why infant mortality from nutritional deficiencies is so prevalent in these regions.
If you know of any hard data showing higher mortality in veg*ns resulting from Vitamin A deficiencies in developed nations, I would love to see it.
As for the 10,000 vegans, they should be consulting their physicians and addressing any deficiencies (including Vitamin A) that are present before getting pregnant, just like ALL women should do.
As has already been pointed out… all this vegan talk is a First World elitist fantasy/ideology… that doesn’t apply to the real world. How many women in developing countries have the luxury of ready access to a Doctor and blood tests… or planned pregnancies for that matter?
And if they were deficient in ay nutrients during pregnancy, or while breastfeeding… well I guess they just weren’t “doing it right”! Just so long as no animals were harmed.. eh?!?
And as it seems to need repeating: Chris Kresser’s article is titled “Why You Should Think Twice About Vegetarian and Vegan Diets”
…rather than “Why NO-ONE Should EVER EAT A Vegetarian OR Vegan Diet”
But then you’d get much less bank for your buck trying to “debunk” a reasonable caution.. much better to make a straw-man out of it.
Funny that you point out the cautionary nature of the article, yet you have the most comments, all of which essentially boil down to the same “vegan propaganda” argument that you use to jump down the throat of anyone with the slightest resistance to your views, including other omnivores.
At least some people around here, like Karin, are actually scientifically literate and can present their arguments logically.
I don’t think it’s funny at all.
I take the health of humans, including the ecosystem which supports us, very seriously indeed.
Frank, I admire you for striving to remain civil. Many people have remarkably little understanding of the complexities of these issues, and can’t think of a single intelligent or relevant thing to say, so they throw wild punches, hoping to provoke someone, if they can’t shut them up altogether. Or they resort to simplistic phrases like “Vegan=holistic Meat eater=me” -as if that is somehow a compelling or persuasive argument in the context of a conversation about human nutrition and physiology!
I am sorry that it offends certain commenters that some of us want to talk about human health and nutrition on a site that is devoted to the topic of human health and nutrition, but the fact of the matter is that this particular article is ABOUT human health and nutrition! If that makes me a “self-centered meat-eater” in Ms. Martell’s eyes (despite the fact that I don’t even happen to eat meat) then I can live with that.
Now, let’s get back to the topic of Vitamin A.
So Andy, you stated:
“As for the 10,000 vegans, they should be consulting their physicians and addressing any deficiencies (including Vitamin A) that are present before getting pregnant, just like ALL women should do.”
Well, Andy, I have to admit that I’m not surprised by that answer, because, well…..how else could you respond to my question, right?
However, it certainly SEEMS like a disingenuous answer. You know fully well that most vegan women aren’t going to their doctor and getting a full micro-nutrient assessment done before they get pregnant…..don’t you? And I’m sure that you are not so naive about the training of M.D.s to think that they have any extensive knowledge about nutrition, how all micro-nutrients interact, the role individual genetics play, etc. -Just try asking 100 vegan women if they think their doctor knows more about nutrition than they do! (I’ve yet to meet a physician who knows more about nutrition than my 9 year old son….lol).
And you undoubtedly know that most doctors (at least American Docs) aren’t about to suggest that extensive nutritional screening be done for their patients, even if they DID know how to interpret most of these tests, which they largely DO NOT.
Most doctors just tell women considering pregnancy to stop smoking, cut out the alcohol, and be sure to get some folic acid. Some might check for iron status. PCRM just advises women to: “Begin a healthful diet before you become pregnant.” Many will recommend a prenatal supplement, which in the case of vegan women will generally contain a small amount of beta-carotene as a source of vitamin A. And that’s that.
I was vegan at the beginning of my first pregnancy 10 years ago …and between the three midwives and one physician that I saw, I had about 2 minutes of conversation about my diet. I was pregnant again 3 years ago and had a similar experience. Unless I came in there with symptoms of PROFOUND AND OVERT signs of malnutrition, I was on my own.
So what would sort of comprehensive assessment for micro-nutrient status do you think is actually happening? Is it covered by insurance? Is it already standard protocol in Canada? Would you please share with us your recommended protocol? That way, women will know what specific tests to ask for when they visit their doctor. Thanks!
Also, I did note in your response to me, you did at least agree that conversion to Vitamin A from beta carotene is low, that vegans have lower Vitamin A status than omnivores, that children with compromised immunity and/or nutritional status are going to have trouble meeting their needs from plant sources alone….and yet…..
On your own blog you claim that it is “so easy to get it from plant sources.” You even inform the reader that one quarter of chopped carrots provide over 100% of the daily recommended intake of Vitamin A! REALLY? No caveats, qualifications necessary?
You then go on to claim: “If you know of any hard data showing higher mortality in veg*ns resulting from Vitamin A deficiencies in developed nations, I would love to see it.”
Oh dear……
So….is this really the standard that you want to set for children’s health?
We can point to data that shows that vegan children have lower Vitamin A levels, we can show studies that show that about 45% of the populace has varying degrees of difficulty converting beta carotene to Vitamin A in the blood, we can show that people with thyroid issues, or infectious diseases, or are otherwise compromised are likely to suffer from low Vitamin A status if they are ONLY consuming plant sources. But……..until we see “hard evidence” that vegan children are actually DROPPING DEAD at significantly higher rates than omnivorous children due to Vitamin A deficiencies in developed countries, we should just advise ALL women to become vegan because it is so damn “easy” to get our vitamin A from plant sources? Is that where you want to leave it?
Note to all sane and intelligent humans of whatever dietary persuasion:
It appears that the likes of Dr.Bernard, Dr. Gregor, Doc to be Adam, et. al will continue to make their incredibly asinine one-size-fits-all recommendations for everyone…..the individual be damned……..Their minions will continue to promote the “way” as long as their particular child is okay, as long as there remains a single studly looking vegan bodybuilder.
The burden of proof is on us.
This is all so fascinating.
Some that comment….. those that have it all figured out…would be wise to remember that we….. like nature, are ever-changing and evolving ecosystems. Things can happen. What appears to be a perfect diet/lifestyle now may change as you grow older and succumb to our natural process ..evolution of passing.
It will never be as easy as eating one way or another. Lucky those who just go to sleep and that is that. Not many will be so fortunate. Disease will be a part of all of our lives. Diet in many forms will help some of us. Others will struggle to find something that they can tolerate if it is not too late.
This discussion will seem quaint if you ever find out you have Celiac or other such auto-immune that greatly contributes to health problems induced by diet that would appear to be uber- healthy.
A gluten-free diet is only part of a lifestyle change to which a person with Celiac must endure. Complex carbohydrates in the form of plant foods, dairy, fruits, vegetables, nuts, beans,etc. can be very offensive to a small intestine.
Enjoy your good health when you have it…as disease will drop you on your head..a wake-up call to the humble nature of our true being.
I am grateful for all those who comment in the spirit of helping,sharing their experiences, but not dictating their beliefs on what is a right way to eat.
Just wondering what is the purpose of spelling “veg*n” with a star?
One thing I notice is that most vegans are ethical vegans, whether or not they catch every single use of animal products. They don’t prioritize micronutrients, and they may or may not have figured it all out – we are moving forwards in terms of people’s understanding of how to execute diet. They prioritize the universal whole, whether or not trucks run over small animals while transporting coconuts or all the other odd points meat eaters make about why vegans aren’t perfect. Meat eaters only address their own well-being. Btw, Chris Kresser is not a doctor, he is an acupuncturist with an interest in digging up and correlating information, however focusing on the small details doesn’t always lead to the big answer, and Chris’s focus is on the well-being of his patients. Vegan focus is on the well-being of animals – or on ceasing the violence done to them in our name. Vegan – holistic Meat eater – me.
An encompassing term that denotes both vegan/vegetarian, without having to type it all out.
I think your record is stuck Erica… try reading some of the replies to your earlier comments. To repeat myself… your assumptions about this “meat eater” are wrong.
Earlier Erica you stated ” OK, meat eaters (and I am not a vegan or vegetarian) let’s hear about how you just want to eat bacon…”
…and before that you mentioned having been a pescatarian at some point (yes I do actually read the comments)…
so what gives..?
Are you a self-centered meat eater or a blessed vegan?
Wolf in sheep’s clothing, or a sheep in wolf’s?
Here is a critical review of this article, coming from an omnivore.
http://www.debunkingnutrition.com/2014/02/does-plant-based-diet-lead-to-nutrient.html
I just checked out that blog. The blogger may claim he’s an omnivore, but his site reeks of veg*nism.
Lots of references and praise for Esselstyn and Furhman there. Not one reference to meat on that site except for his bio claim that he enjoys a good burger every once in a while. It appears he’s pushing a veg*n diet under the guise of an omnivorous diet so that he gets more traffic.
Is there by any chance a coincidence that you and he share the same first name?
He’s me lol… and I do still eat meat. Funny that instead of arguing the facts, your defence is “I think he’s vegan.”
That.. in my view.. is a valid response, based on the little I have seen of your anonymous blog.
Veganity does not come from a basis of unbiased science but from emotion… “I don’t like killing animals!” So as I’ve repeatedly said, expecting unbiased research from such an agenda is like expecting unbiased information on race-relations from a bunch of neo-nazis.
If you think your little blog post has anything to add to the over 500 comments already posted here well good luck to you
It may be a valid response to you, but I think that’s sad. I judge all arguments based on scientific merit, regardless of what side they come from.
I am not a vegan and have little interest in the ethical reasons for being vegan. I am interested in science, period.
If all you can do is dismiss claims based on what side of the fence you think they are coming from, then frankly, I am not interested in debating anything with you.
Science does not take “sides”.
And why the heck you think anyone should accept the “judgement” of an anonymous blogger is beyond me
But looks like you have a fan in “Bethany” below…
I don’t think anyone should accept it – they can decide based on the merit of the argument. It doesn’t take popularity to be credible.
Who the heck said anything about “popularity’?
For example: Chris Kresser is obviously a real person… he has his picture and credentials posted here for everyone to judge for themselves whether they view him as a credible source or not… whether to even read his blog, or not!
I expect that some people have even met him in real life.
Beyond that he provides links that others can read for themselves.
Having read Good Calories, Bad Calories I no longer take any “expert” at their word.. least of all one that I literally cannot tell from the proverbial “Adam”.
You have no (zero) accountability to your readers… why would I even read your blog?
Sure I *might* find reasonable advice on race-relations at a neo-nazi website but I’m pretty sure I’d have to wade through the mire in order to find it… maybe I am better off going to the UN Human Rights Commission instead … what do you think?
Oh dear… that’s all I have to say.
I’ve been vegan for over ten year, conceived two (super healthy) babies while vegan and and now raising them on this extraordinarily healthy diet. They are never sick (although it seems all their peers are!).Take a peak at how animals are raised for food (no matter how it’s done, it’s unsustainable and beyond cruel if you care even an ounce for animals – and this includes birds who are used for their eggs). Take a peak at the health of vegans who are doing it right (key phrase – doing it right!) as their are many. Kresser can continue to say whatever he wants and because of his status he has a certain amount of clout and people believe what he’s saying but it’s simply not true. You can achieve optimal health on a vegan diet. The methane gases from factory farms are single- handedly destroying our planet, yet there’s still a lot of money to be made and I’d question this doctors personal motivation behind his big meat push.
first, i am sorry for your kids. comparing their health with the SAD junk eating other kids in class is misleading. you’d have to compare them to kids on a similar diet with added fish and grass fed meat to see the difference. second: those gases produced by cows are a byproduct of grass digestion with the help of bacteria in the bowel (cellulose is a polysacharide even the cow needs help with despite his 4 stomachs). vegans surely produce a lot of gases during digesting that plant matter in their bowels, thus ruining the planet too! beans, anyone?
and by the way no vegan under 40 has voting rights. trust me. a young body can take a lot of abuse, be it SAD or veganism. once you turn 40, all hell breaks loose if you don’t do it right. been there, lived it. just wait and see.
There are a number of flaws to this article. Here are just a few. a. He says the amount of veg you’ll need to eat to equal the Vit A in liver is: 2 cups of carrots, one cup of sweet potatoes or 2 cups of kale every day. That’s not an awful lot, the thought is mouth watering and an animal lives. b. He says we are low in Vit B 12, what he fails to mention, is that folic acid (high in veg) can do the job of B12, so it’s not really that necessary, and B 12 can be obtained from mushrooms, and an animal is spared. c. We are lacking in testosterone, so??? That’s probably why we are more peaceable, and an animal lives. Why does an acupuncturist think he is qualified to talk publicly about this? Not eaten animals for 50 years, have a healthy son – 21 – who has never eaten animals. I’m 63. There seems to be a huge backlash against our humanitarian movement, which is down to the fact that they are losing ground.
Why does this fellow, not mention homocystine, which is the proven reason that carnivores get cancer!
Juliet, my vegan-since-conception ten-year-old is also super healthy and doesn’t catch the illnesses her classmates do. People’s concerns are misplaced.
If you want actual facts about the points listed in this article then go to http://nutritionfacts.org/ and look them up.
“Actual facts”… wow!
Ah yes. Dr. Greger. The veg*n who claims that eating an egg, one of nature’s most perfect foods, is akin to smoking a cigarette. Next.
He just cites studies like Kresser does.
No need to be offended by it.
Mister Kresser,
Humans are the only of the Hominid line that eat meat as a major part of their diet. Humans as other hominids are built to eat plant matter (teeth, intestines).
yes, we are the only ones. it is what made us what we are, beat the pack and take our place on the top of the food chain. thanks to meat our brains got bigger and smarter. humans are not built to eat exclusively plant matter. the silverback gorilla is. check and compare his digestive track to yours. if you don’t know the difference, you are ignorant.
Humans are opportunistic omnivores — as are our closest cousins the Chimpanzees…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyGxQq7jSA8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZhsM9OzeEo
Yes we can eat plants… we can eat animals…we can and do eat pretty much any other life-form on this planet.
Check out this extremely interesting debate – paleo versus plant based diets on Intelligence Squared
http://intelligencesquaredus.org/debates/past-debates/item/910-dont-eat-anything-with-a-face
Also, “Consumption of red meat has been found to increase the risk of death from heart disease, even when controlling for levels of fat and cholesterol2. To find out why, Hazen and his colleagues gave the nutrient l-carnitine — found in red meat and dairy products — to 77 volunteers, including 26 who were vegans or vegetarians. One committed vegan even agreed to eat a 200-gram sirloin steak.”
“Tests showed that consuming l-carnitine increased blood levels of trimethylamine-N-oxide (TMAO), a compound that, evidence suggests, can alter the metabolism of cholesterol and slow the removal of cholesterol that accumulates on arteries’ walls.”
“But even when they took l-carnitine supplements, vegans and vegetarians made far less TMAO than meat eaters. Faecal studies showed that meat eaters and non-meat eaters also had very different types of bacteria in their guts. Hazen says that a regular diet of meat probably encourages the growth of bacteria that can turn l-carnitine into TMAO.”
Double checking
To further make the case, researchers checked the levels of l-carnitine in the blood of nearly 2,600 people who were having elective heart check-ups. By itself, the nutrient didn’t seem to make a difference. However, people who had high levels of both l-carnitine and TMAO were prime targets for heart disease, further evidence that it’s the bacterial alchemy — not the l-carnitine alone — that poses the real threat.
Finally, the researchers found that feeding l-carnitine to mice doubled the animals’ risk of developing arterial plaques, but only when the mice had their usual gut bacteria. When the animals were treated with gut-clearing antibiotics, l-carnitine in the diet did not encourage plaques.
Daniel Rader, director of preventive cardiovascular medicine at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, says that the study makes a “fairly compelling” case that intestinal bacteria feeding on l-carnitine increase the risk of heart disease.
The finding should give pause not only to meat lovers, but also to people who take l-carnitine supplements, which are marketed with the promise that they promote energy, weight loss and athletic performance, says Hazen. “None of those claims have been proven,” he says. “I see no reason why anyone needs to take it.”
http://chriskresser.com/red-meat-and-tmao-its-the-gut-not-the-meat
I just went through the entire debate and I agree it is interesting. It did not change my position or my convictions but it was interesting.
My take on the panel, in case anyone cares…
Neal Barnard is slick — he knows how to present himself in front of an audience but he is also slimy… I do not trust him. I would not buy a used car from this man
Chris Masterjohn seemed overwhelmed and ineffectual,, sorry Chis but you had the facts.. just didn’t make a great impression with them. Neal Barnard was very pushy (to the point of being rude) and managed to establish himself as the de facto medical authority, which everyone seemed to buy into… no matter that he was being disingenuous
Joel Salatin is a very smart and down to earth guy… he knows what he is talking about and I could listen and talk with him all day
I think I was most impressed with Gene Baur… he seems to genuinely care and made some great points. I think he is misguided but I really liked him.
I am a lifelong salesman and I saw immediately that Chris Masterjohn was in over his head. He wrongly assumed that being armed with the facts was enough in a debate setting. The famous vegan doctors are famous because they are super salesmen who have prepared answers for every question. The debate was a triumph of style over substance, talking points and 3 second sound bytes over facts.
http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/cmasterjohn/2013/04/10/does-carnitine-from-red-meat-contribute-to-heart-disease-through-intestinal-bacterial-metabolism-to-tmao/
This is a blog by a woman who follows a carnivorous diet for health reasons. (Just meat and offal and bone broth).
http://www.empiri.ca/2012/08/my-carnivorous-diet.html
No, my point is not to convince anyone reading to consider an all-carnivorous diet. (I don’t even eat meat). I only mean to emphasize that the human body is VERY COMPLEX and a diet that works for you right now might not work for you in the future.
It should of course go without saying that what might work for you might NOT work for the person (especially the toddler) next door!
Hi Terry,
Unfortunately, it’s difficult to decipher who is speaking to whom in this thread, but since your question appears directly underneath mine, I’m going to assume it’s directed at me.
Is this the quote that you wanted credited?
“Veganism, outside of ascetic religious practices, is a product of a consumerist civilization, a convenience diet that would falter without supplements and highly processed and/or well-traveled food products.”
It’s by Christopher, and it appears in a statement directly above my own. I’m pleased to have an excuse to repeat it again.
Thanks for asking!
I’ve been Vegan for 17 years, I am healthy, less days off work due to sickness than anyone in my department, in fact I am struggling to work out when I was last of sick, could be four years ago when I got tonsilitus, (which meat eaters get too I believe!). If someone eats nothing but meat, they aren’t healthy, if someone eats nothing but tomatoes they aren’t healthy. Eat a balanced diet, change it up, whether you are Vegan, Veggie or meat eater, don’t buy this article. P.S. Does this guy hold stocks in a vitamin / supplement company????
I would’ve never guessed when I posted the first comment to this thread that there would be over 500 responses and an ever-escalating flame war. Speaking personally, I am astounded by the level of arrogance and close-minded thinking displayed by most vegans in this thread. But I am not surprised by it. When I was vegan, I was the same way. Plenty of compassion for animals but little for other people’s opinions.
The thing that stuns me most of all though is the naivete, particularly when it comes to the “less harm” doctrine of veganism. All of us, no matter what we eat, are causing tremendous amounts of harm daily. The only way to avoid doing so is to go off-the-grid and homestead, which very few of us are willing to do.
We can through studies back and forth at each other (and as much snark as science it seems) but at the end of the day, human beings en masse did not evolve as, or to be, vegans. Veganism, outside of ascetic religious practices, is a product of a consumerist civilization, a convenience diet that would falter without supplements and highly processed and/or well-traveled food products.
My opposition to the factory farming of animals has not changed, nor has my opposition to conventional mono-cropping of agriculture and GMOs. Worldwide, agriculture is at the forefront of human problems, whether it is starvation or over-consumption or climate change and there are no easy answers, and that includes such simple slogans as “go vegan” or “go paleo.”
Thank you, Christopher.
“Veganism, outside of ascetic religious practices, is a product of a consumerist civilization, a convenience diet that would falter without supplements and highly processed and/or well-traveled food products.”
Hear, hear! It is the self-entitled elitism that disgusts me the most. I live near Amish communities where people live off the land with the use of animals who they respect. When I was a vegan, I thought I was too good to buy cheese from those farmers–that I was actually doing better by animals by buying food imported from all corners of the globe! As if those ships carrying coconuts from Thailand, chocolate from Africa, chia seeds from Bolivia, etc. etc. etc., have no impact on animal life! I blush at my ignorance now.
can you please credit that quote?
It is from the comment just above it, by Christopher
And I wholeheartedly agree… these are “first World” issues we are having rammed down our throats here… try preaching a vegan gospel in a country that does not have the infrastructure to ship fresh produce in at all times of the year.
It’s true that we, as Americans have received almost no information about nutrition or where our food comes from. Even the mis-directed food pyramid is relatively recent. It is true that one diet does not seem to work equally well for all people, but that many people who try to control their diet based on their concerns did not have the appropriate information to do so optimally, because it didn’t exist. It is heartening that so many people are now able to discuss these things with more information at hand. It doesn’t however necessarily translate into most people making every personal food choice based on macronutrients although people who like to hang out in chat rooms like to go on as though that is the key. It is also true that we have been almost completely kept in the dark about how intertwined our lives are with the most horrific cruelty towards animals and those who take pleasure in posturing about how irrelevant that is to them are mis-directed, and that is certainly not something Chris Kresser is advocating, as he pointed out in the first lines of this blog post. Those people who find compassion annoying and irritating can count themselves at the beginning of their journey…those who simply haven’t been exposed to it but are open to new information are steps ahead.
There is more information out there now but it makes the tendency to eat donuts no less strong, so all we can all do is learn what we can, attempt to change to a whole food diet as best as we are progressively able, and to respect those whose choices are based on ethical considerations beyond our own, micronutrients be damned.
Okay,
I can see that none of my challenging questions are going to be answered by the “vegans” here, so for now, I just want to say one thing that’s been on my mind since the start of this exhausting thread:
I’m a former animal-rights oriented vegan, and I really strived to be as authentic as possible at the time. That meant ending my support for things that I knew required the use of animal parts…..like televisions, computers, etc. If I had to use a computer for college, I went to the school library, so that my choice had no economic impact.
So I find it really hard to take seriously the folks on here CLAIMING to be vegans, who don’t support the rights of people to use animal products to support the VITALITY OF THEIR BODIES, and yet have no problem buying industrially produced electronic equipment. Let’s make this clear: If you are one of those people and you are using an industrially manufactured computer right now (which contains the innards of animals) you are absolutely NOT a vegan……you are AT BEST an ASPIRING vegan, and at WORST a CLOWN. (Or that’s being mean to clowns…..how about a rank hypocrite?)
On a less confrontational note, can we ALL agree that some people do NOT thrive on “vegan” diets? For example, I met a mother last week whose daughter has severe allergies to both nuts and legumes. Can we at least agree that it’s a VERY GOOD THING that animal agriculture exists so that this girl can be nourished properly?
P.S. Someone asked another commenter why he has commented so often….Maybe because he has a lot to say? This isn’t one of those raw vegan sites, where people are banned and bullied and told to go away because they have the chutzpah to complain that their teeth are falling apart!
wow, my pc contains innards of animals? first time i hear it. never to late to learn. time to google. thanks
Hi Karin, I have noticed you are very adamant in defending your position and I find yours a fascinating story – but there are many gaps and believe me, I don’t expect you to share your life on a random blog. You do repeat many times, that you were a deeply involved “vegan” so seems like you might be making assumptions that all people are the same as you were, although you still don’t eat meat. But because those around you fell short of your expectations and definitions, you gave it up because you saw what other people were doing. “And I found it very interesting that the same people who were criticizing meat eaters…”
Now you seem to be working just as hard to defend consumption of animal products. Instead, I would have imagined you, of all people, would understand that if someone wanted to do something – like not eat animals or drink their secretions that you would respect their position – that at least this person is doing something. This why I have found your story interesting.
Although cliched it reminds of the starfish story, maybe a bit of wisdom does come with age: (I will repeat it here just in case anyone has not heard it)
A young man is walking along the ocean and
sees a beach on which thousands and thousands
of starfish have washed ashore. Further along
he sees an old man, walking slowly and
stooping often, picking up one starfish after
another and tossing each one gently into the
ocean.
“Why are you throwing starfish into the
ocean?,” he asks.
“Because the sun is up and the tide is going out
and if I don’t throw them further in they will
die.”
“But, old man, don’t you realize there are miles
and miles of beach and starfish all along it!
You can’t possibly save them all, you can’t even
save one-tenth of them. In fact, even if you
work all day, your efforts won’t make any
difference at all.”
The old man listened calmly and then bent
down to pick up another starfish and threw it
into the sea. “It made a difference to that one.”
“…or drink their secretions…”
Careful not to let your prejudices show… must keep up that pretense of being “OpenMinded”.
Is your implication that at least veg*ns are “doing something”..?
I support my local small-scale farmers, my local economy, I buy local and in season. I personally know, trust and can visit the farm where my grass-fed beef and pastured pork are raised. I personally know and trust the butcher who works directly for that farm. Same for my eggs, milk, vegetables etc… I am convinced that I am supporting a sustainable model of agriculture in the face of almost overwhelming forces which strive to dominate us (in the name of profit) with an incredibly wasteful and unsustainable model… a model that will likely lead to food riots and mass starvation. Surely this “doing something”..?
1. drinking milk whether human babies breast feeding or milk from an animal – are secretions = fact. (an externally secreted fluid designed specifically to nourish the young).
2. I was just saying that Karin seems to present an all or nothing premise. So yes those that choose to not eat animals products are doing something as it relates to her all or nothing stance (example.Karin
FEBRUARY 24, 2014 AT 8:35 AM. Not that those that chose to eat animals aren’t making difference.
3. I have not questioned yours or anyones decision to buy local, we all know that’s a better choice – I go to the farmers market for my veggies very week.
I know you would like to put me on a side animal vs. plant but I am high on empathy (highly empathetic person – HEPs). For example – I have the ability to step into the shoes of another person, aiming to understand their feelings and perspectives. So I am a very open minded person and follow the research on both sides of this topic so I can make the best decision for myself and family – not rely on a book writer to tell me.
So you keep saying but for an HEP you seem surprisingly willing to be patronising and insult others’ intelligence… as an example your assumption that I have done no research; based on nothing more than my unwillingness to share with you, my own quest for knowledge… it is none of your business so far as I am concerned.
Once again, your choice of words leaves me questioning your sincerity and credibility.
I am sorry if you feel I am patronising and insulting others intelligense – I certainly don’t mean to do this. I was only asking you about your research because you first challenged mine. See ya – no open discussion here.
“But it does tell me why you never answered my question as to where you do your research -you apparently don’t.”
Quite an insulting reach from my assertion that I am well read on these topics.
But I agree that with you, there is “…no open discussion here”
Hi Open Mind,
I was about to write a response to your other post, and I noticed this statement: “I go to the farmer’s market for my veggies every week.”
It will help me to better explain to you my position if I know where you are. You don’t have to be specific if you’d prefer not to be, but could you share me the nearest city?
I haven’t been able to get veggies at my Farmer’s Market since the fall!
Thanks!
Also:
You claimed that I have an “all or nothing” stance, which is profoundly ironic. Please reread what I wrote.
I was speaking about people using the term “vegan” to describe themselves. Sorry, but the fact is that veganism IS an all or nothing philosophy. It calls for an end to ALL animal use and consumption. And the people that use it to describe themselves use it to differentiate themselves from those who are merely trying to “do something.”
There are some self-described “vegans” who describe animal consumption as “murder.” Some of them really believe that feeding milk or beef to a 4 year old is committing a moral atrocity tantamount to murder. And yet, almost every single one of them buys things with animal parts in it.
What if gelatin from concentration camp victims were used to make that LCD screen instead?
If you don’t obstain from such products, then you are not a vegan. You may be a vegetarian who chooses to obstain from eating eggs and milk, but you are simply not a vegan. Not nearly. And nobody of consequence should take you seriously if you pretend to be one.
abstain
Hi Karin, obviously I live in a warm climate, I don’t think the place matters here.
This is confusing without a proper forum to discuss but here goes one more time – you do state as “fact” it is all or nothing: “Sorry, but the fact is that veganism IS an all or nothing philosophy.”
So the irony is that “their” definition or philosophy doesn’t match your definition or philosophy. You use a specific definition and assume all people use your definition. Fact: there are different definitions : “a vegetarian who omits all animal products from the diet” . Or this one – “Vegan. Does not eat dairy products, eggs, or any other animal product.” So it seems that your ideal definition is: “A vegetarian who eats plant products only, especially one who uses no products derived from animals, as fur or leather.”
So it is not ironic but purely matter of semantics: “You may be a vegetarian who chooses to abstain from eating eggs and milk, but you are simply not a vegan. Not nearly”.
So maybe “they” should call “themselves” “simply” animal-eaters that don’t eat animals? Or maybe you could coin a new term for “them”? Karigans = Karin’s Vegans?
“And nobody of consequence should take you seriously if you pretend to be one.” Who are the people of consequence?
I am sorry you have had such an horrific experience with “vegans” but this site is too derisive for me to spend anymore of my time on. I am going to go spend time with my loved one who is one of “them” the “pretender”, the animal eater- who doesn’t eat animal products, a real live vegan, a person of “consequence” , “a person who is trying to do something” and not a “they”.
“This site is too derisive for me.”
That is coming from someone whose initial post included a link to one of the smarmiest people on all of youtube. I decided to watch a few minutes of one video created by “Plantpositive”, the “researcher” recommended to us by Open Mind. The video is supposed to be about a critique of Chris Masterjohn’s take on cholesterol. Plantpositive quickly makes a joke about Kresser being “dumb” and then proceeds to make another joke about both Kresser and Dr. Masterjohn being “retarded.” I guess I can’t blame him for being so uncomfortable with himself, considering PP’s limitations. But that level of scholarship is for minds far more “open” than mine.
Karin, you didn’t answer OpenMind’s post for the most part? Just the derisive statement with another put down of sorts. I would be interested in hearing your reaction to the main subject of the post since you do seem to carry quite a bit of emotion around people who say they are vegan. Don’t get me wrong – we all do carry emotion and passion – its more than research that forms our beliefs around food choice.
Hard to reason with blind faith and emotion-based choices.
FrankG if you are emotionless, it doesn’t come across this way in many of your posts. Nutritional science is far from perfect. It appears as those if one stacked up all the research “for” eating the modern Paleo vs “against” less animal intake and the impacts to health there is an overwhelming win for against stack. So food choice is complicated and science is not perfect – for food all the answers don’t exist.
@Suzie.. a person can be passionate and enthusiastic without allowing it to cloud judgement.
I agree that the choices are complicated and that no-one has all the answers. This is precisely why I speak out when I hear people writing as if they DO have all the answers.
New to this blog thread: It appears as though many people are off on tangents not related to Chris’s Intro above. Chris himself is not trying to “convert” vegans to meat eaters just wants them to think twice.
He was just offering as his recommendations, take them or leave them as fact based on your on research (Vit/hormone D synthesized from sun hitting our skin as the best source not mentioned here). It appears, although unsaid, that his recommended diet is also not “optimal” since he also recommends supplements.
“I hope this article can serve as a resource for anyone on a plant-based diet, whether they choose to start eating meat (or animal products, in the case of vegans) again or not.”
I must say that writing a book about diet is the way to go$$$! I think I will join the ranks. But off to my day job.
This article is ridiculous. Brewers yeast? LMAO. It’s NUTRITIONAL yeast, not brewers yeast. They’re completely different. I was raised on it and have never eaten meat in my life. I won the presidents Physical Fitness Award in 2 different high schools.
I don’t suffer from memory loss, in fact my memory stuns everyone. I can remember when I was a baby.
My 3rd generation herbivore kids are not deficient either. They are healthy and brilliant – all honors geniuses and have broken 75 year pull-up records at school.
This article is nonsense. He doesn’t even know the difference between brewers yeast and nutritional yeast.
I guess “kids” is precisely the right word if they are indeed “herbivores”… can they digest grass?
Seriously, I do wish you and yours well but please don’t think that repeating the same tired mantra will persuade me to change my life choices and convictions.. you are wasting your time here.
I read this article as being about pausing for thought before blindly accepting that veganity is the healthier choice… for me it is not… your mileage may vary.
the only thing i am smiling at here is your comment. i can spot a fake prophet when i see one and you are definitely it. do your kids do weighted pullups at school with 25% of their bodyweight in a backpack? because I do, and I am 47 btw. and no vegan either
i have yet to see a vegan to beat me at that. go tell my sixpack how healthy you are.
People used to think smoking was good for them too. Now, for the first time in the history of this planet, we have internet where we can share ideas globally and so far, fairly freely.
Blessed are those minds that had this figured out well before internet like Einstein, Da Vinci and myriad of others.
if vegan was bad for you, then all the vegans would be sick or dead by now but the truth is, we’re not.
today we have top gold medal winning athletes, bodybuilders. .the strongest man on earth today… all vegans.
why do people defend meat eating? because its the way they were brought up and some feel that to change, would make themselves look like everything they have believed over the years was … not “wrong” but they just don’t believe another way is possible.
the other way saves the environment and saves animals. If its all “the way of life etc” .. would YOU change places with a slaughterhouse cow?
Would you even take your kids to see the slaughter house? of course not. would you raise your dog from a puppy, then one day chop its head off, gut it cook it and feed it to your kids? of course not – not most of us anyway.
its ok to change for the better. people finally start to realise that smoking is not good for them and they gave it up.
its a change for the betterment of you, earth, mankind and certainly the animals.
the answers are not in a laboratory… the answers are in your heart.
P/
Phil, why don’t you climb down off your sanctimonious high-horse and actually read the thoughtful and well-reasoned comments here before going into auto-pilot and posting the usual vegan spiel… it really doesn’t improve with the telling.
As for your comparison of smoking to meat eating it really doesn’t work…
My heart is just fine: in terms of physical health, my life choices and my convictions regarding what I think is best for the planet and our future survival.
An observational study from Austria
http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchObject.action?uri=info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0088278&representation=PDF
This article is so desperate to convince people to go paleo that it ends up being self-contradictory.
First, the vegan diet is depicted as deficient but then the author points out a study ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8842068 ) that concludes that “there was no survival difference between vegetarians or omnivores. Nor was there any difference in rates of heart disease or stroke between the two groups.” So, were do you see any deficiency?
What about being a little less self-centered, maybe you would realize that eating meat do not only involve yourself but the animal that was killed too.
If this study is right and veganism + omnivorism offer the same life expectancy, what about doing something ethical and stop needlessly killing animals?
Surely you’re a conscious of the fact that you are using the term “vegan” and “vegetarian” interchangeably… as if they mean the exact same thing?
Are you being purposefully disingenuous, or just underlining your ignorance?
I’m getting really tried of the emotional rhetoric…maybe you should read some of the earlier comments before just spouting off the same tired responses.
This videos is interesting, about a former vegetarian. I recommend it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNON5iNf07o
Thanks for a moment of sanity in amongst all the veg*an noise
It really seems that the lunatics are taking over the asylum!
Hard to believe that so many of those commenting even read here on a regular basis…
There must be some kind of veg*an jungle telegraph which reaches out to try and overwhelm any opposition: with the same, usual, tired, boring, propaganda and emotion-fueled rhetoric… such a monumental waste of everyone’s time
Don’t think for yourself, don’t bother reading, don’t bother responding, just recite your prayers boys and girls and maybe you will be get into your fantasy heaven… good grief… what a waste of life.
I find this article to be fueled by a lot of anti-vegetarian/vegan propaganda and misinformation. Right now as we speak, the top record holding bodybuilders are vegan. There are people in their 70’s and 80’s that are vegan and are still running and working out in a gym like a 30 year old would. Most people on a regular meat based diet are well into their years of limited mobility and an increase in the aging process. To meet some of your opinions half way, I also once knew someone that was vegan and heavily malnourished. Strangely enough this person had a serious addiction vegan baked goods, breads and heavy carbs and was very overweight.
Our digestive system was never evolved to eat meat. We cannot consume meat unless it is cooked which removes bacteria that could be potentially fatal if consumed. With a little research, you can see that our digestive tracts are coiled like that of a herbivores’. If you were to observe the digestive tract of a carnivore you would notice that the digestive track is very short and uncoiled, seeing as how most carnivores walk on all fours and need a short distance in the digestive tract path to pass what has been consumed. However the fact that we can consume certain sea dwelling creatures slightly proves the fact that we, by nature can be pescaterians to a degree.
Over the years, the changes in the food industry have rewired the human palette and have made the vegan/vegetarian appetite scarce and unappealing, but only of that which was rendered via propaganda from the processed food and meat lobbies. We have been wired to eat this way folks. We are a product of that which has been taught and observed.
In every form of plant life contains all of the necessary vitamins, proteins and nutrients needed to sustain life. It is only a matter of doing proper research. However most people are lazy in this day and age of convenience, which serves as an ultimate plunge into poor choices in observing good health. In depth studies have show that consumption of animal flesh and proteins cause the bodies metabolism to naturally slow down and store fat in mass quantities, while plant based proteins accelerate the muscle growth, response and absorption and do not horde unnecessary fatty carbohydrates. Plant based proteins such as hemp provide an amazing array of health benefits as well as a sustainable protein that does not require the digestive tract to work overtime in trying to burn, break down and dispel the fatty proteins of animal byproducts.
All forms of needed nutrition can be found within plant life. It has been proven time and time again. Do some research. The answers are out there. Talk to a healthy vegan or vegetarian and see how they manage their health. Do not waste your time with mindless drivel that has been debunked but still in circulation because dairy, processed foods and meat lobbies want to maintain their profit margins. Its all about money folks, especially in the USA. The big pharma and corporate food industry lobbies are not interested in a healthy, conscious and alert society. They are interested in subpar health that needs a certain amount of medication to keep that Pharma industry booming. Here’s a kicker for that previous line. Just last year, a lobby of Kaiser Permanente doctors and surgeons recommended that morbidly obese, diabetic and cancer patients go on a vegan diet to improve their condition and their health. Out of all the so-called wonder drugs out there used to treat various diseases and conditions, these top medical doctors advised a vegan diet to combat their symptoms. I rest my case!
Ryan, there is so much nonsense in your post I hardly know where to begin. Lets start with this, “With a little research, you can see that our digestive tracts are coiled like that of a herbivores’.” All digestive tracts are coiled.The human digestive tract is nothing like an herbivores, either in form or function. Cows and other ruminants have multiple stomachs. Do you have four stomachs? The primary digestive mechanism of herbivores is multi-stage fermentation. Cud is chewed and re-digested. Herbivores must spend most of their time eating their low nutrient dense cellulose based food stuffs. Some herbivores eat their own feces. Does this sound like anything humans do? We most certainly have evolved to eat meat. It is the nutrient dense red meat of herbivores that gave us the evolutionary energy to become human. No Anthropologist disputes this. Koala bears have evolved to eat Eucalyptus leaves. Without them they die. Pandas have evolved to eat bamboo, without it they die.Look around you. If humans have not evolved to be eating meat why do the vast majority of people in all cultures, eat meat? If we have not evolved to eat meat, why are there no reproducing vegan cultures? Why has one never been described? Have we humans been doing it all wrong for the last 2.5 million years? I dont think so.
As far as citing the recommendations of Doctors as proof of the validity of ones position, remember that doctors are not infallible. Remember it was doctors that prescribed paxil,thalidomide, and the dozens of other drugs that have over time killed literally millions of people. It is doctors that performed frontal lobotomies. In the last century it was doctors that ostracized one of their own, Dr Semmelweis, for his medical heresies. Remember what his “Heresy” was? It was that doctors wash their hands between patients to minimize the spread of infections.
A few general points, likely to be lost in the jungle of status quo myths being promulgated here.
1) Nothing you eat will make you an omnivore. That is a physiology descriptor. When you choose to eat non-vegan, you are a carnist. This is a CHOICE. This is also a choice virtually all cultures now force on innocent children. Every category of measurement with humans shows our **evolution** to be that of herbivores. Easily proven if you care to read. Evolutionary time is measured so much longer than the time of “hunter-gatherer” that this minor stretch is only relevant when you consider our level of dis-ease. Stuff enough crap you were not designed to process into your belly and you will get sick.
2) There is NEVER any measurement of initial states of health of anyone in these studies. When people describe to me about a vegan hero sports star or bodybuilder, i always ask how long they were prior to going vegan, and what they did prior. This is crucial for long-term health. If you base your health decisions on the practices of high-end “fit” athletes, you will be greatly disappointed as you age. Being fit and being healthy are NOT synonymous.
3) Rarely if ever is the issue of gut bacteria mentioned in these articles. This is one of **the** most important areas to discuss. The gut bacteria of a proper vegan with a varied diet is of a predominantly differing genus than carnists. This is also now being proven that this genus is better as a single dose of this bacteria can resolve lifelong digestive issues in those unfortunate souls who are suffers from non-vegan diets and IBS etc. Even probiotic manufactures are not yet fully hip to this. A vegan taking regular probiotics are actually tossing carnist gut bacteria into their systems, messing them up.
4) The very simple matter of fact that we have a growing population of very healthy souls, all vegan, who are flourishing for many years proves we do not need meat or dairy. I am 4.5 years in, never get sick, am fitter than most half my age, and far healthier than most around me. If we were not meant to do this, we would be dying in short-order.
5) Trying to isolate specific vitamins and supplements etc and their effects within a diet is almost ludicrous. Most openly genuine medical folk will patiently explain they don’t really understand what happens when food is digested, it is all educated guesses, snapshot of knowledge at one point in time, very very subject to change. Hell, take a leaf of spinach and chew it, swallow it and you have just ingested hundreds, if not thousands of natural chemicals. Case-in-point, medical science is starting to admit the obvious, that the so-called “junk DNA” miiiiight actually be doing something, and heck there might even be a secondary set of DNA involved. But don’t tell that to Monsanto et al as they screw up our future biosphere with their greed and GMO.
6) One area rarely discussed is the linking of vegetarian and vegan diets. The ONLY connection they have is that a vegetarian diet is a stepping stone to a proper vegan diet and is horribly unhealthy as, in it’s current definition allowing dairy, it means that dairy has unfettered space to wreck havoc within our digestive tract. Given that dairy milk evolved as a fast-track for young calves to grow into large cows quickly and efficiently, using casein and a whole host of non-human bio-markers, can it be of any surprise how many unhealthy vegetarians there are? Casein is one of the world’s most efficient promoters of cancer, look it up. And oh, don’t forget the blood, pus and antibiotics in dairy milk.
7) Finally, for now, any reference to how we ate, how we managed in caves etc, is almost entirely conjecture, much like most of how our bodies operate. Hell, science doesn’t even know how memory works. A thought repeated a thousand times does not make it fact. The status quo is a marvellous marketing beast, but being vegan, i won’t eat it.
bored yet?
Wow, what a great place to throw in Mitchell and Webb. There is so much bullshit in these comments, I really needed a laugh. Thanks for a great contribution!
…it’s an ethical thing… I don’t think humans should be treated like this
Unless you have scientific evidence to share backing your claims, I’ll thank you now for your impassioned opinion piece.
Science is on the side of those who choose a whole foods plant based diet.
Thank you Garth Davis! You are a breath of fresh (educated) air!
I am a physician who specializes in weight loss and nutrition. I have been studying nutrition for years. Wrote a book in 2007, The Experts Guide to Weight Loss Surgery, during which I recommended a Zone diet. Problem is that people didn’t do well on the Zone, nor Atkins. I, myself had high cholesterol and high blood pressure. SO I decided to dedicate myself to really studying nutritional science. The results were amazing to me and absolutely completely different to the assertions you make. I began adding a vegetarian diet as a treatment option and the response surprised me. The health of my patients improved beyond what I would have believed. I am now writing a book for Harper and have done extensive research of the literature. I have literally 1000 articles of real science disputing these myths that are so tiredly repeated. Adventist Health Study 1 and 2 among the best. Vegans lived longer and had less heart disease, cancer and diabetes. EPIC oxford study showed vegans compared equally to “healthy” meat eaters who only are meat occasionally. Obviously did much better than the typical English omnivore. The problem with that study is that the vegans only got 25 gm fiber compared to Adventist 45 gm so obviously we’re not eating as much fruits and veggies. More processed food. Also did not take any B12 and did not consume organic food so B12 was lacking, and yet we’re still extremely healthy. German study again showed vegans lived longer and healthier than omnivores. Bone health is actually superior in vegetarians and usually vegans EXCEPT in oxford study but again those were not healthy vegans. They were ethical vegans so didn’t eat right. Vegetarians tend to have slightly lower iron stores but never show increased anemia. Low iron stores may be key to long term health as heme iron causes oxidative stress and is associated with cancer, heart disease, and diabetes. I can go on forever. This internet Pseudo expert BS would be funny if it were not so dangerous to our health. 11 yrs treating obesity and I have never treated a vegan. Never. Lots of meat eaters. All meat eaters. In fact, the thousands of diet logs I have put together for my research show animals products are present at every meal, even when the patients are trying to eat healthy. They also suffer from osteoporosis, Vit D deficiency, B12 deficiency, and anemia.
I will just add this quote from Eric Rimm. He is one of the head nutrition researchers at Harvard school of Public Health. He is not vegetarian. He has been researching the Men’s Health Profession study and the Nurses Professional study which are the largest prospective cohorts in America. They have published hundreds of studies on the effects of diet and health and introduced a novel statistical analysis called comparative risks analysis. Their studies have been damning to meat and processed meat while very affirming of fruits, veggies, legumes, and grains. Harvard, due to these studies, emphasizes a plant and grain heavy diet but not vegetarian. Given the findings he was asked why they didn’t just recommend vegetarian. He said,
“Well, we could tell people to become vegetarians,” he added. “If we were truly basing this only on science, we would, but it is a bit extreme.”
– Eric Rimm, a nutritional epidemiologist at the Harvard School of Public Health
So if they were actually basing it on science they would tell people to be vegetarian. This from one of the most recognized and accomplished nutritional researchers in the world.
yeah, that. ^^^^ science.
Thank you, we need more people like you to spread the truth.
Didn’t you get enough of a beat down here?
http://freetheanimal.com/2012/07/dr-garth-davis-surgeon-i-warned-you.html
and here?
http://freetheanimal.com/2012/07/doctor-fail-garth-davis-bariatric-surgeon-and-china-study-balderdash.html#comment-166172
Still arguing the same flawed and shoddy science, I see.
Not to mention a glowing recommendation from the PCRM… AKA the Vegan Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine — talk about a misleading name eh… who’d have ever guessed they had an hidden agenda?!? LOL
http://pcrm.org/good-medicine/2011/autumn2011/healthy-foods-and-healthy-bodies-garth-davis-md
Of course, a recommendation from them would be like being put up for a Nobel Peace Prize by the Nazi Party
And what’s with the Weight Loss SURGERY??? Seems counter-intuitive (if not downright hypocritical) to me that someone who purports to be an expert on a nutritional solution, relies on expensive surgery to make his bread and butter… just saying
Reductio ad Hitlerum. Grow up Franky boy.
See: Godwin’s Law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
Here is a vegetarian scientist that is in complete disagreement because he has made the some of the studies that contradict you. Almost all studies done on weight lost contradict your assertions. No a vegetarian diet is not best for weight lost, nor health.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eREuZEdMAVo
http://authoritynutrition.com/5-studies-on-the-paleo-diet/
man if you are really an MD, which I do not believe for a moment, God save your patients. despite B12 deficiency they enjoyed excellent health? really? and all those meat eaters had B12 deficiency? wow. never saw an overweight vegan? and you don’t know why? because they are malnourished and constantly hungry, thats why. having said that, i must admit I really love vegans! the more vegans out there, the more meat for me. y’all go grazing now and let me finish my steak.
I was never more unhealthy than when I was clinging to the ideal of veganism for 12 years, getting my protein from soy products and consuming grains, eschewing fats of any kind, all in the name of optimal health pounding on a stack of nutritional bibles all the way. Once I added animal fats, meats & coconut oil into my diet and eliminate grains, the migraines, back aches, joint pains subsided, the psoriasis vanished, the acne disappeared, the hair stopped falling out, the anxiety and depression became manageable, my upper respiratory allergies that plagued me year-round all faded away. But during 11 1/2 of those years, there was no way you could have convinced me that my choice was an unhealthy one because I had an arsenal of “proof” I was making a good choice. I do not engage people in conversation about their food choices for exactly that reason. I simply set a glowing, healthy example of a 50+ year old woman who is clearly healthier than her thirtysomething former self.
There are vitamins A, D, E and K that are fat soluble and require fats to be carried within the body. This fact is widely known by many people. It wasn’t the right thing to avoid fats when you were vegan, that was why you might have missed out on absorbing those vitamins even though you were consuming them. And coconut oil reduced inflammation.
Maybe someone should tell that to Drs. Ornish and McDougall. Because they both promote veg*n diets that are low or no fat.
That’s interesting. I’ve had the opposite yet parallel experience. When I dropped animal products from my diet twelve years ago, my migraines lessened, my cholesterol and weight went down, I stopped getting chest and joint pain, and I had more energy. I feel better in my 50s than I did in my 30s. I consume a variety of beans, grains (no GMO wheat), nuts and seeds (for the healthy fats) and many vegetables and fruit. It’s possible that it wasn’t being vegan that was the problem for you, but the type of vegan diet.
I know that both vegetarian and the Paleo diets are both healthier than the standard American diet because they both stress eating more real whole and usually organic fruits and veggies, in fact a vegetarian who eats eggs and doesn’t eat wheat/grains or legumes or dairy IS eating a paleo diet. The common ground here is the fruit and veggies. Extremely healthy to either diet follower. It’s the other things that the person is eating that is the main health ruiner. The refined carbohydrates. The flour and sugar and the enemies here. That and the hydrogenated vegetable oils. And vegan/vegetarians eating soy that hasn’t been fermented to get rid of its phytoestrogens/ antinutrient properties, are doing themselves not just a disservice but a health detriment. Plus most soy grown in the US anyway is GMO. The thing to think about is this: yes you can get the 9 essential amino acids (protein broken down) in plant sources but can you also get all the essential B vitamins as well from the same sources? Can you get CLA, ALA, COq10, choline and other nutrients from all the same plant sources? Meat is a one stop major protein source with ALL the essential amino acids but also allll these other sources of vitamins and antioxidants and minerals. Especially vitamin B12. Yes even meat eaters can be deficient in b12 and need to supplement as many people have leaky guts and their intrinsic factor in their gut has gone. Fruit and veggies provide many of the daily vitamins and minerals but it’s harder (but not impossible) to get all the essential amino acids from them. We’ve been lied to about meat being unhealthy. It’s not ESPECIALLY and maybe only if it is grassfed organic free range biodynamically raised. Which is actually a very ethical way to raise an animal which should persuade some vegans/vegetarians to question wether a happy animal that lives a happy life and then gives up it’s life so that people can eat it and actually become healthier, is that animal not serving a higher purpose then? Human beings are the smartest and dumbest animals on the planet and an animal that helps a smarter animal live longer and healthier, that doesn’t seem wrong. Also, why aren’t vegans and vegetarians protesting lions and tigers for eating gazelles? Why is it wrong for humans but not animals? Sure we aren’t running on animalistic instinct but if we deep down CRAVE meat, is that not some sort of animalistic instinct to survive? To feed the body what it needs? The human body does indeed need protein (amino acids) and more to keep physically fit. Muscular. If there is a deficiency of amino acids in the daily diet, the body will break down muscle to get what it needs. This is why a majority of vegans have less muscle tone and are skinnier. Skinny doesn’t equate healthier automatically. This is muscle wasting and is not ideal for health. Being strong is indeed healthy. Having muscles and muscle tone is healthy. And muscles need protein and a lot of it. Because the body uses amino acids for other things than just building muscle. The sulphuric amino acids, like methionine for instance help the body detox. Basically I think as long as a vegan is very smart and diligent in getting the essential amino acids and b vitamins and other vitamin and minerals, than, that diet is on par with a paleo diet. But a paleo meat eating diet isn’t worse. Grassfed organic meat is very healthy and ethically raised. And it’s the easiest source of all the essential amino acids and vitamins, etc in one place. A lot of vegans and even the mainstream society have placed little emphasis on how very important protein is and how very toxic sugar and flour (gluten) is. Both a paleo and vegan diet have more in common than not. Both are concerned in getting enough protein just from different sources. Both eat more fruit and veggies (or SHOULD BE) than the average person. Both realize that these whole foods are helping them become healthier. Both avoid dairy. It all boils down to a vegan/vegetarian eating too much gluten or quickly digested processed carbohydrates just like the average person eats because if you lower the protein intake, a person will usually get their calories from somewhere else and if those foods aren’t off limits then they get consumed more. Adequate protein will NOT induce an insulin response like high GI carbs will, therefore they being made of what the body needs, are not unhealthy. If you are a vegan or vegetarian, consider eating more non GMO fermented soy but keep in mind soy has antinutrients in it so you may need even MORE of the nutrients that it will block absorption of. And if just a vegetarian, eat more eggs, organic pastured free range eggs. And organic raw milk if you can get your hands on it although, consider not having it for a month, see how you feel, then introduce it and see how you feel. Same with eggs. A paleo/vegetarian diet hybrid would NOT be an unhealthy diet at all. Especially if adequate eggs were eaten daily, and plant sourced amino acids from a varying source. Eating Paleo and vegan/vegetarian is a harder diet for either camp but both are healthy. One just needs to work even harder than the other one and THAT is the point Chris is trying to make in this post.
As a vegan I do eat ridiculous amounts of beta carotene, calcium and iron because that is what a plant based diet is all about. I eat sweet potatoes, kale, cilantro, black beans, avocados, nuts and much more everyday. That is a real vegan diet, not this idea of switching meat for soy and continuing a conventional American diet. I think that is what your article is based on – the fact that Americans do not know how to get the nutrition they need.
Any diet where you have to supplement is probably not a good idea. It just is kinda intuitive to me anyway.
I have been mostly vegan for over a year now. My hair is thicker, my body feels and looks amazing and my energy levels are off the charts. I must admit I’m educated about health and I eat veggies and no processed sugars. Your assessment of calcium is wrong, vegetarian populations have much lower rates of osteoporosis. I understand that most people don’t know enough to be healthy eating vegan but it’s possible. The toxins you consume in conventional meat are horrible. You forgot to mention all the sickness and malnutrition in our conventional diet of meat and sugar. Educated vegans do live longer and are healthier.
“Mostly vegan”?? Is that like being “just a bit pregnant”..? Presumably you mean “vegetarian”.. or maybe even omnivorous?
All these folks who rationalise the nutrient deficiencies by explaining how others “did not do it right” or that “they need to be educated”.. really does not do any favours for advocating this lifestyle choice… why is eating properly such a complicated task?
It also makes me doubly-concerned for those who force such a lifestyle choice on innocent children.. especially when I see an advocate of veganity above asking “What specific needs do children have? Care to clarify?” Seriously?!?
Chris and others have their opinion about a vegan diet but from all the studies I read and books written by doctors that have reversed heart disease and diabetes, a whole plant-based diet with some supplements like B12, D3 or sunshine, zinc and K2 is the way to go for the best chance of good health.
Yet I reversed my Diabetes with a “plant-based diet” where I let my “food” eat the the plants for me, and no supplements needed
Should I ignore my own experience in favour of some questionable studies and books?
I was a vegetarian from 3 years for health reasons. I was diagnosed with gallstones and kidney stones at the age of 17!!
I had no real medical coverage and the state wouldn’t provide coverage for the operation. The pompous ass doctor said, “The operation will cost $3,500.00″. I skulked out of the office. I put my mind to work to come up with a solution to my health problem. With the help of Transcendental Meditation, my mind led me to a health food store in a neighboring town.
I found the books to aid me in my dilemma. So I started out with multiple fasts and changed my diet. After the fasts, I became a vegetarian. I went back to the doctor for an examination of the stones and they were completely gone. The doctor was very surprised and I told him how I did it. However, a bit of unusual strife came my way and I left town for military service. I do miss being a vegetarian and I’ll go back to if I make it to 70 years old.
so you were a vegetarian, which made you sick, then you meditated, fasted, became a vegetarian and got better. what a load of BS. hey, let’s keep some level to this thread pls. some comments are really sub-par.
A Raw Vegan Lifestyle is a way to THRIVE. Look at individuals like Markus Rothkranz or Lou Corona. They look and feel incredible as I know Lou personally. There hair, skin, nails and bodies are thriving and they have sharp minds! Both living their passions in this life. I say each to their own however know that it is possible. Clean the body out first which both of these individuals did..injoy a simple life not so based around food. .its what we let go of that gives us our vital life power back!
The thing that is missing here is protein.
1. Most people are woefully low in daily protein intake, even omnivores.
2. Too much protein is not bad for you. The amount of protein a person has to eat to stress the kidneys is so astronomically high that you wouldn’t hit half that by accidentally eating all the meat you could. There’s no threat here. People that overeat protein are healthier than people who overeat any other macronutrient (at the same overall calorie level.
3. The proteins in meats are much more bioavailable than are those found in other foods. You’re lucky to find any non-meat food that approaches being a complete protein. A lean steak is going to have an unbelievable amount of protein while filling you up, being fairly low in calories, and making you feel like you’ve had a real treat. Chicken is even more protein-dense, lower in calories, and arguably more satiating – though I don’t know a ton of people who find it as delicious as a good steak. It’s very cheap, too!
Find me a reputable scientific source that says people are woefully deficient in protein. That is completely false.
Also false is the idea that most plant proteins are not complete. If you do the math, this myth is washed away.
http://www.debunkingnutrition.com/2013/09/are-plant-proteins-complete-proteins.html
So is that anonymous blogger your example of a “reputable scientific source”???
It’s simple math based on data contained in an extensive review done by the World Health Organization, so yes. You’re welcome to double check the math…
Haha. You can’t just drop Denise Minger’s name as though that is proof of anything. Denise is a pip, no doubt, and she’s just published a book – Death by Food Pyramid… She’s appears to be obsessively thorough, but who knows? You’d have to read both The China Study and her book and come to your own conclusions if that is possible. You can’t just drop “Denise Minger disproved The China Study on a couple of blog posts.” and consider that an argument that holds rice!
Erica, you are welcome to read the China Study, Denise’s critique and post your opinion. But something tells me- you are not going to spend several months of your life on thorough research. Far easier to bash the work of others outright.
Haha. You can’t just drop T. Colin Campbell’s name as though that is proof of anything … You can’t just drop “T. Colin Campbell proved The China Study on a couple of blog posts.” and consider that an argument that holds rice!
Ugh, the China Study was terrible. It sounded great — let’s look at this amazing amount of data from China! — and ended up being a bait and switch with practically no actual information about the China data at all. I read it when I was still an aspiring vegetarian and I hated it even then.
Lifelong vegetarian no fish or eggs. 42 years old. Full bloods show normal levels for every test. Ran a marathon in November. I’m not sure what the point of an article like this is?
What blood tests did you get done? Do you take supplements?
The point of this article is that the majority of vegetarians run into problems long term. Just because you are doing great so far doesn’t mean the others will. We all have different tolerance to carbs and different requirements in micro-nutrients. People should make informed decisions.
Maybe you should learn to read Dan…
“The takeaway is that the most recent studies using more sensitive techniques for detecting B12 deficiency have found that 68% of vegetarians and 83% of vegans are B12 deficient, compared to just 5% of omnivores.”
Lucky you to be in the small percentage who seem to be “doing it right”… shame on those who find it so hard to nourish themselves without animal products.. why the heck is it so hard to eat right???
This is to On the Fence. I like your response. This is how I am dealing with the choice. I completed certification as a health coach. We were encouraged to find a target market – who we were passionate about working with. Broccoli is good, kale is good, but when I started to see what was going on with it’s production I decided that what I was really passionate about was animals – that would be my target market…because I just couldn’t focus on helping people eat broccoli once I had seen where their meat came from. They would have to know as well. Beyond that I couldn’t force myself to watch any of the animal abuse videos on Facebook or YouTube. Honorably then I decided if I wouldn’t watch, I had to stop participating. It wasn’t an option to permit others to commit that kind of violence in my name while I closed my eyes because I wanted to engage in a variety of egocentric consumption. Still, I had to find a process to create change. I still got bacon with my omelet, because I still wanted bacon. And I ate some, with the picture of the Chinese pigs I had seen, standing alive with huge hooks through their jaws waiting to be driven in the back of a truck, bumping up and down with the hook holding them in place. I ate a few pieces with that picture in mind. It was undercooked and fatty. I threw the rest away, which is not common for me. And since then I have not had the desire to eat bacon, ribs, pork dumplings…some of my favorite things. I
have to peg each decision in place in the moment – I still want cashmere sweaters, leather bags and shoes, honey, cheese,yogurt and diary and I’m hardly at 100%, maybe 75% but I am approaching each decision each day as a conscious choice to be mindful, open and not defensive, and I find I more and more make the choice that supports no direct violence being done in my name. We each have to come to terms with these decisions, but I’d like to see people discussin their conscious mindful choices and instead I see alot of arrogance and derision. At the end of the day, meat is unsustainable and market forces are already moving us towards non-meat or faux meat alternatives because it’s largely just a texture and a very poor economic resolution to what it offers. I don’t want to hear from people who catch a fish, or have a chicken in their backyards. We can’t all catch fish and raise chickens. We’re talking about current large scale food options for millions, and the world.
Hi Erica,
Thanks for your comment. I think if you look at the comments carefully, you’ll see that most of the vegans commenting here believe that vegan choices are ALWAYS better than choices which involve animals. There is no adjusting for context. Most of the comments also imply that if a person who tries a vegan diet doesn’t find that it works for him/her from a physical health perspective, that that MUST MEAN that the person did it wrong. There is no recognition that humans with different genetics may have different needs, and there’s CERTAINLY no coherent plan offered for how to create a sustainable vegan food system.
In terms of nutritional needs, I offered $100 in exchange for a three day nutritionally complete meal plan for children (my offer is still open, by the way) and I received two of the lamest responses imaginable!
I also think that the Paleo/Weston Price folks who follow Chris are much more interested in animal welfare than you realize. Dr. Chris Masterjohn, Denise Minger, Melissa McEwan, Dr. Matt Lalonde, and Kresser himself are just a few examples of some really smart thinkers who have devoted followings in the Paleo/Ancestral Health community. These folks originally turned to veganism when they were younger, largely out of a concern for the health and welfare of the entire planet and its inhabitants. Their ideas about animal agriculture evolved but that doesn’t mean that they now dismiss animal welfare as trivial.
You don’t need to raise your own chickens to make a profound difference in the lives of animals and support sustainable agriculture. However, you DO need to know your farmer. You need to seek out farmer’s markets and CSA’s and talk to your farmer about his/her practices. You can do this whether you live in a rural community, or a place like Harlem, where I used to live.
You are absolutely correct in your assertion that CAFO meat is completely unsustainable. Grass-fed meat is, on the contrary, totally sustainable, and I assert that as a person who doesn’t eat meat. I would also contend that a permaculture type of agricultural system which includes livestock is actually less violent than large-scale grain based agriculture. (I hate to keep repeating myself, but large scale organic plant-based agriculture is almost completely dependent on CAFO manure for their fertilizer. Every time you buy from those folks you indirectly support the worst treatment of animals. But that is a topic for another time).
By the way: If you want to really explore the science behind why at least some people require animal foods to thrive, I would highly recommend the work of Dr. Chris Masterjohn.
And these same CAFOs are the breeding grounds for the deadly strains of e-coli, which kill many people each year.. and no longer just from eating undercooked hamburger* but increasingly from cross-contaminated tomatoes, lettuces, peanuts etc…
*Anyone else here recall how a gourmet restaurant might serve RAW ground-up steak tartar, or a body-builder drinking a jug of milk with a dozen RAW eggs cracked into it, for breakfast? Nowadays in the USA ,it seems that every restaurant has a warning on the menu about under-cooking meat or eggs and anyone who even handles an egg is so paranoid they need to go wash their hands immediately!
This is the problem with factory-farming… raising livestock, can be done with respect and compassion for ALL life. I am convinced that this is the only sustainable way forward.
and i strongly agree.
Karin,
That’s a good answer and makes sense except that we are talking about 290 million people in this country alone and factory farming, not one person with a home garden and a cow. That isn’t the premise anyone is arguing against and to suggest that is the option for most people is not following a linear argument. I live in a city of 8 million, not one of whom has the option to grow their own food. Almost no one does. No doubt that would be optimal and then the argument would not be about the cow. People have an issue mostly with factory farming. Yes there are a few real abolitionist vegans but that is not the discussion here.
OK, I agree. I am convinced. Everyone should be vegan, except, except, except …. for me.
And I don’t need that much. A couple of cows, some chicken, some fish, some grass (I hope that the vegan world will share), etc.
Actually I believe it was Chris Kresser who set the topic about vegan and vegetarian diets, not vegan “trolls”.
Yes, but his intention was to discuss the possibility / practicality of a nutritionally-complete veg*n diet.
The brigade of veg*n visitors has turned it into a preach-fest about their moral high road. Most of them aren’t contributing anything useful in terms of addressing possible nutritional deficiencies.
I would encourage readers to look at the ever mounting research that plant based diets reduce and often reverse a number of illnesses (heart disease, stroke, diabetes). This does not happen when consuming animal foods. The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine has tons of information, as does “The China Study”. Also one only needs to look at the Blue Zones of the world to see where people live the longest – they eat very little animal products at all, much less daily. In regards to eating tons of soy and grains as a staple, many current vegetarians/vegans do not consume as much soy or none at all as in previous years. Many also eat gluten free. The key is to use whole foods. As with any diet, there are junk food vegetarians/vegans that eat convenience foods out of boxes, or people that use whole foods and cook from scratch. Today’s vegan/vegetarian is not the same as it was even 5 years ago. Many of you keep referring to previous experiences, but those were your experiences based on the knowledge available then to you, not necessarily the same as what is happening now in vegan/vegetarian diets.
The China study was totally debunked by Denise Minger.
She took a few months to thoroughly study it and uncovered staggering faults in it that could not have been done by a simple negligence or mistake. T. Colin Campbell twisted the data on purpose to suit his vegetarian agenda. Denise refutes his book brilliantly. Read her critique for yourself http://rawfoodsos.com/the-china-study/ or watch her presentation here
Umm an experienced PhD in nutritional biochemistry up against Denise Minger – not moving me off the fence on this one. He did post a rebuttal to her and was kind in saying:
“Kudos to Ms. Minger for having the interest, and taking the time, to do considerable analysis, and for describing her findings in readily accessible language. And kudos to her for being clear and admitting, right up front, that she is neither a statistician nor an epidemiologist, but an English major with a love for writing and an interest in nutrition. We need more people with this kind of interest.
I am the first to admit that background and academic credentials are certainly not everything, and many interesting discoveries and contributions have been made by “outsiders” or newcomers in various fields. On the other hand, background, time in the field, and especially peer review, all do give one a kind of perspective and insight that is, in my experience, not attainable in any other way. I will try to make clear in my comments below when this is particularly relevant.”
http://www.vegsource.com/news/2010/07/china-study-author-colin-campbell-slaps-down-critic-denise-minger.html
So I think my time on this blog is done – hasn’t moved me.
So, an ad hominem rebuttal was all you needed to be convince? No addressing of the science necessary? I mean, was that really a rebuttal? Wouldn’t a head-to-head match-up of addressing the facts been more pursuasive than, “well, she’s just a girl and I’m the mighty T. Colon Campbell” be more worthwhile?
I see it differently, if I am trying to look at both sides of this issue – why would i not want to review the rebuttal material – that is the nature of debate, thus the reference to the scientist’s rebuttal. No need to respond to me directly as I am not learning anything new via these posts and apparently I am not adding new either. Good bye. Best of health to you.
So are you now claiming to have actually read Denise Minger’s initial reassessment of the China Study data, then Dr Campbells’s rebuttal, then her response to him… and so on?
From your above response it seems that you stopped after reading a third party re-hashing of Dr Campbell’s rebuttal… you had the answer you wanted!
… a third-party re-hashing from a clearly vegetarian site… so expecting unbiased commentary there to meet your quest for true knowledge???
Denise Minger has posted the complete 11 part series here including links to T. Colin Campbell’s rebuttal and her response to it…
http://rawfoodsos.com/the-china-study/
You’ll find that the scientific method is immune to the type of “appeal to authority” exhibited both by Campbell and Fence just above… you don’t get a free pass based on your credentials, no matter who you may be… the facts have to speak for themselves.
But as suspected, “OnTheFence” was a bit of a misnomer really… just another passive-aggressive ideologue who has a clear agenda and is not open to reason.
I am sorry FrankG you feel the need to insult me – I doubt or at least hope you would not talk to me this way in person. You are wrong – you can see my response to Stipectic directly above as well. Good bye. No need to response directly to me.
You still here..?
And the PCRM is a vegan organisation… if they were not trying to obfuscate their true agenda they would be more properly called the “Vegan Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine.. then folks would be able to see that expecting unbiased “science” from them is about as unlikely as expecting unbiased discussion on race-relations from the Third Reich.
Indeed this is the same issue I see rampant throughout the comments here… on one side we have folks trying to present a reasoned argument: based on evidence-based-science and following where the data logically leads; while on the other we have an emotion-based agenda rooted in “killing animals is horrid”…
Whatever your personal reasons for choosing not to eat meat, you are not convincing anyone here with even half-a-brain that it is based in science, nor that it is best for the planet.
Open your mind and your eyes… look at the “Allan Savory: How to green the world’s deserts and reverse climate change” presentation (as posted just above by Drumroll) for a little insight into why we need livestock
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpTHi7O66pI
The buffalo literally made the Great Plains.. then man came along, wasted them all and ploughed it up just so all that topsoil could blow away in the great dust bowl. Now farmers rely heavily on fossil-fuel derived fertilizers and pesticides to grow their crops.. using up valuable, non-renewable resources, while polluting our ecosystem and wiping all kinds of life off their sterile fields. Give them a chance to turn this around and grow real whole food — support local initiatives.
Now we can talk about compassion to all life.
I think all vegans might be surprised by this extremely insightful view on how raising animals for grazing and meat consumption could potentially reverse soil erosion in the grasslands AND lower the effect of greenhouse gasses on the environment:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpTHi7O66pI
It certainly throws two of their most common arguments into contention at least.
Chris Kresser started his post mentioning his awareness of the compassionate concerns of people who choose not to eat animals. I don’t see one meat eater who has the same awareness. People choose to be vegan because they choose not to eat current farm animals who are raised with poor diets, in horrific conditions, slaughtered mercilessly by poor souls who have that horrific task 8 plus hours a day, fed the majority of the antibiotics big pharma produces. It has nothing to do with how our ancestors hunted meat. It has nothing to do with our ancestors at all. It is usually a compassionate choice and with that awareness they are usually, if they do any research, able to figure out how to resolve whatever nutrient deficiencies come along. However considering the vast majority of people eat meat and the country is quickly going down the crapper, I wouldn’t argue for meat being the answer. Is bio-individuality the answer? That each person eats what is best for them? Sure, as long as those who choose to eat meat are as aware of the cost as those who have taken the time to expose themselves to the suffering we protect ourselves from (Albert Schweitzer paraphrase). If you can eat meat once you are mindful that many cows have their legs cut off while they are still alive, go ahead. The difference here is in an awakening of compassion, not micronutrients, past or present. And that is why this conversation never comes to any conclusion – because it is comparing apples to oranges and no one seems able to make an overarching statement of why. The why is compassion that comes from eating like you care about more than yourself. Yes, the planet may still be on it’s last legs but some people still choose to commit to each day as though their choices matter to the whole. OK, meat eaters (and I am not a vegan or vegetarian) let’s hear about how you just want to eat bacon, or you just need it to be healthy…or how it’s just about you.
“OK, meat eaters (and I am not a vegan or vegetarian) let’s hear about how you just want to eat bacon, or you just need it to be healthy…or how it’s just about you.”
So if “not a vegan or vegetarian” what do you eat?
Beyond that I am getting pretty tired of your overbearing sanctimonious attitude… especially as you also seem to suffer from selective reading comprehension. I personally have responded to you several times already and made my position quite clear as: being firmly against all forms of animal cruelty, of respect for all life and deeply committed to a sustainable and respectful future for humans and all other life on this planet. In my view that includes the rearing and eating of livestock and other animal products.
I see ALL forms of factory-farming and industrial food production as harmful and unsustainable INCLUDING the vast crop mono-cultures which support this ridiculous “1st world” ideology of veganity.
If you can eat vegetables just be mindful that when they are harvested rodents, reptile and baby birds have their legs cut off while still alive and their bodies mangled by harvesters. Go to a farm and watch the threshing machines. Go to a vegetable canning factory and see the dead and dying animals that come down the chute with the spinach. You cannot exist on this planet without taking life. I’m sorry. I know you are tenderhearted and it is beautiful but it is fantasy.
Overall, after reading ALL of these posts and talking to people who have taken different routes to eating and health, I think it should be clear that there simply isn’t ONE right way. People have been able to survive, and thrive, on almost every corner of the globe. It’s about making smart choices and staying away from processed crap. Everyone has an agenda and the arguments both ways have merit, because they can BOTH be right. It’s all a matter of doing what you can do consistently and what you feel is right for you.
This is absolutely exhausting.
I am 45 and recently discovered I am hypothyroid. I have been overweight from the earliest photos of myself – even as a child. I am 6′ tall and weigh 230. I would like to be 190-200 as I lift weights and really want/like to be active.
I have tried any number of diets – including going vegan for a month – and have settled on a vegetarian/paleo type diet for myself. I’ve eliminated most sugars and breads from my diet and do not drink milk anymore.
My wife is vegan/vegetarian and she seems to love it. Only problem is I m just not convinced it is the ‘right way’ for everyone and certainly not the way that humans have been eating for the last several hundred years.
I, on the other hand, do not feel ‘right’ without a certain amount of animal protein that is mostly consumed in eating eggs, lowfat cheese, cottage cheese and whey protein.
I recently quit my job last year and started my own business that was my big goal. My big goal this year is to get in the best shape of my life as someone dealing with hypothyroid.
The years of beating myself up and self loathing are tempered by the fact that I now know I had a seriously underperforming thyroid and thus unable to lose weight like most people.
So here I am on a Monday about to head to the gym and once again scratching my head over the confusing information and the back-and-forth dialogue of diet and nutrition information.
The only conclusions that I have come to in regards to food and nutrition so far in my life are these:
1 ) Keep testing different combinations of healthy unprocessed food to see how my body responds
2) I will not treat what and how I eat as a religion. I absolutely believe that living things should be treated in a humane way that maximizes their health benefits, however I feel no moral conflict that we should or should not eat animals. I have no patience for people who try and convert others to their belief system (or dietary choices) by asserting their moral high ground.
3) I believe that it is the chemicals/hormones that is put in most meat, fish and poultry that leads to chronic health diseases. For this I blame our government for their ignorance, their ability to be bought, and desire to treat human beings like cattle.
4) I believe that my body is strong enough to handle a greasy hamburger and fries or a stack of pancakes with bacon once every 2-3 months.
5) Sugar, for me, has proven to be one of the worst chemicals I can eat – causing depression, fatigue, anger, irritability and more.
6) Water is my friend. Drink as much as I can during the day.
I’m not sure where I was going with this comment but maybe there are other people like me out there who deal with some kind of health issue, and are confused and frustrated over all this back-and-forth information.
Before I knew about hypothyroid, the answers for me were all about diet and exercise. Now, after being diagnosed, it’s about diet exercise and genetics.
What I conclude from all this conversation is that every human being is not made to eat one diet, but rather based on their genetics may need certain combinations of nutrients/foods/portions different from the next person and this takes time and experimentation to figure out.
That’s all I got.
I made the first post in response and I’ve followed the argument since….which is just as I knew it would be. Lots of people splitting hairs about micronutrients when in fact most people won’t even drink an extra cup of water if they don’t feel like it much less pursue all their micronutrient realities in real time – although they can sling the language in message boards. The other thing that gets missed in these discussions is that vegans have mostly watched the videos where they show you cows being hacked apart while still alive, including grass eating cows who still don’t go to happy slaughterhouses, and baby chicks being dumped by the tens of thousands into macerators because they’re male, baby calves being removed from their mothers at birth so we can drink their milk. They are thinking about more than themselves. The meat eaters are to a one talking about themselves and their micronutrients. They never address the whole or others. I’ve eaten meat all my life and I spent not one second pursuing micronutrients in real life. I’m sure I have that in common with, as one person just mentioned, 99% of the American population. The major disease, as expressed by Michio Kuchi, the father of macrobiotics, is arrogance, and that I see in spades in this discussion.
This is another educational video of Dr Jameth Sheridan explaining how some vegans did not eat as nutritionally as they should on a vegan diet and later go back to eating meat.
Dr Jameth Sheridan explains why it is safe to be on a vegan diet. He is a doctor so anyone is welcomed to rebuke him.
I want to say that if I have to rely on animals to live, I would rather have a short existence because such a way of living is just not worth living a long life. I want to be happy and beautiful inside and out. Eating eggs and meat is just ugly and it doesn’t make me feel beautiful.
If I have to live with any possible non-threatening deficiencies from being vegan then so be it, it would be my willing sacrifice for wanting to live a life away from needing to rely on animals for anything.
But I still don’t believe that vegans can be deficient because nutritional science is so advanced to provide for any possible lack of nutrients from any diet.
“If I have to live with any possible non-threatening deficiencies from being vegan then so be it, it would be my
willing sacrifice for wanting to live a life away from needing to rely on animals for anything.”
I used to say the same thing. In a way I still find it sweet, if hopelessly naive. You seem to have no clue about the numbers of non-human lives that people are responsible for taking and/or displacing every single day JUST BY LIVING.
Do you grow all of your own food? How do you think the organic farmer replaces the nutrients lost when the vegetables are harvested? How do you think the vegetables get to market? Have you ever thought about what it takes to get a coconut from Asia to the United States? Do you even have a GUESS about how many animals, including highly intelligent marine animals are harmed in the process? How about the process of transporting almond milk from California to New York?
May I ask if you eat any processed foods? Do you even have a CLUE about how VEGAN food processing impacts the world around you?
Sharon, you seem like a kind-hearted, good natured person and it is a shame you are so naive. Wanting to be happy and beautiful are wonderful goals but eating meat and eggs isn’t a roadblock to that unless you’ve indoctrinated yourself to think so.
If you would rather live a short unhealthy life than rely on animal products to survive, well that is your choice but if your ancestors had made it, you wouldn’t be here right now.
Nope, I’m not as naive or simple-minded as you think I am. I have done my research in nutrition and am convinced that the vegan path supported with the required supplements is safe for me to lead a healthy and happy life.
And I don’t follow the fallacy of appealing to nature/tradition so I will gladly use technological advancements in nutritional supplements to help me on the vegan diet.
Nope, I’m not as naive or simple-minded as you think I am. I have done my research in nutrition and am convinced that the vegan path supported with the required supplements is safe for me to lead a healthy and happy life.
And I don’t follow the fallacy of appealing to nature/tradition so I will gladly use advancements in nutritional supplements to help me on the vegan diet.
Sorry, but I’ll have to say that the naive person is really you. It is a well known fact that 60 billion land animals are killed annually to satisfy the demand for meat. Thanks for your meat recommendation but I’ll go with the much less cruel, less polluting and more healthy alternative.
I’ll take my chances with as much advanced supplements as I can and you are welcome to take yours with the cancer-causing toxin-filled meat and dairy.
Sharon,
I regret that I don’t have time at the moment to watch all of the video links that you have provided.
May I ask what you typically eat and where you purchase your food? It would be enlightening to learn how you grow your food and have it processed and transported to you without involving/harming a single animal.
As I stated elsewhere in the thread, a homesteading family can sustain itself for a year almost entirely on the milk of a single cow slaughtered at the end of that year, supplemented by a gently-managed garden plot enriched by the cow’s manure. One life given. One life taken.
A “vegan” family, by contrast, can purchase thousands of pounds of avocados, coconuts, bananas, tomatoes, grains, legumes, etc., etc. etc. over the course of the same year. How many lives are taken by displacement, how many lives are mutilated by tractor blades, snares, and shipping collisions, how many lives are harmed by the extraction of the oil, the greenhouse gases, the water pollution, sound pollution etc.; how many mammals become roadkill in the process of getting that food to that family? If it is possibly greater than one then maybe we have some serious thinking to do about how we evaluate these matters.
If I were to be reincarnated as an animal I would sooner live the life of that cow than that of an animal killed by some cargo ship transporting coconuts thousands of miles from its source, making our oceans more of a violent cesspool than a habitat. But that is me; I can understand how someone else might come to a different conclusion.
I think that humane living is a matter of doing the best we can with the information that we have, flawed animals that we are.
Karin, you seem to hold on to the notion that one has to always eat in a way so as not to harm a single life such as an ant or fly, which in my opinion is just unrealistic and frankly quite extreme.
Hi Sharon,
I’m so happy to see that you’re back on the thread! Maybe now we can address each other’s specific points/questions.
Anyway Sharon, you stated:
“Karin, you seem to hold on to the notion that one has to always eat in a way so as not to harm a single life such as an ant or fly, which in my opinion is just unrealistic and frankly quite extreme.”
On the contrary, I thought I made myself quite clear that it is NOT possible to obtain one’s food without harming other living things, and that in fact, MANY conscious meat eaters eat in a way that actually causes LESS SUFFERING than those who consider themselves “vegans”. When I was “vegan”, for example, I didn’t give nearly enough thought to the tremendous costs associated with trekking things like almond milk, avocados, chia seeds, coconuts, etc. thousands of miles from every corner of the globe in an effort to provide for my daily nutritional needs. I believe now that I was willfully delusional.
Unfortunately, it seems that you either didn’t understand my last post, or that you deliberately misinterpreted it, so I will repeat some of it below, (with apologies to others reading!) in the sincere hope that we can actually engage in a REAL (rather than a pretend) discussion about the issue that I was raising:
“A homesteading family can sustain itself for a year almost entirely on the milk of a single cow slaughtered at the end of that year, supplemented by a gently-managed garden plot enriched by the cow’s manure. One life given. One life taken.
A “vegan” family, by contrast, can purchase thousands of pounds of avocados, coconuts, bananas, tomatoes, grains, legumes, etc., etc. over the course of the same year. How many lives are taken by displacement, how many lives are mutilated by tractor blades, snares, and shipping collisions, how many lives are harmed by the extraction of the oil, the greenhouse gases, the water pollution, sound pollution etc.; how many mammals become roadkill in the process of getting that food to that family? If it is possibly greater than one then maybe we have some serious thinking to do about how we evaluate these matters.”
Sharon,
Upon rereading that last paragraph, I hope that you finally realize that I was talking about HORRIFIC VIOLENCE done to some of the most conscious and intelligent animals on earth, not the harm done to a “single ant or fly”. (Perhaps your dainty way of rephrasing the issue was a coping mechanism on your part??)
Anyway, Sharon, would you agree that in some cases people can do LESS HARM by directly taking the lives of animals than they can in pursuit of a self-entitled vegan fantasy life?
As I stated earlier, if I were to be reincarnated as an animal I would sooner live the life of that cow than that of a marine mammal mutilated by some cargo ship transporting coconuts thousands of miles from its source.
I know that vegans think constantly about the horrors of taking lives, and if I were given the option of a life on a factory farm or nothing at all, I would absolutely choose nothing at all.
HOWEVER, if I were given the option of a short life on a family farm where I would be valued and respected or nothing at all, I would probably say okay to the family farm, even with the knowledge that my life would not be particularly long. Again, the choice is NOT between life or death–It is between having a short life or NO LIFE AT ALL. I would be just as fine with being a cow with the idea of being a zebra or a gazelle, knowing that my last few moments on earth are unlikely to be pleasant. Nothing lasts forever.
I asked you previously if you had any ideas about how veganic farming would look like from your perspective, because again, almost all self-described vegans are subsisting on food that COULD NOT have been grown without the existence of animal agriculture. I still would love to hear about how you obtain your food and any ideas that you might have for how agriculture would work in a vegan world.
My final question pertains to the fact that people have different nutritional needs due to genetic/biological differences: Would you agree that at least some people cannot live normal human lives, much less thrive on a plant-only diet?
For example, I know of one woman who is living on an ALL-MEAT diet for health reasons, due to vast and severe food sensitivities, and that she credits her carnivorous diet with keeping her bipolar disorder in remission. Would you agree that it’s not unethical to take the lives of animals to feed unfortunate humans beings such as this woman, who has sensitivities to grains AND legumes AND nuts AND various fruits and vegetables?
I’ll stop there for now, because I could go on all night, lol.
Bye for now!
And not willing to take the time to watch a 4 min video yet is willing to express oneself from writing paragraphs of long texts that takes longer, only makes one seem quite willfully ignorant and lazy in research, frankly speaking.
Sorry but I prefer not to continue a discussion with someone who is not truly earnest and patient enough to desire seeing the bigger picture. I wish you all the best in your hormone, antibiotics and toxin-filled diet.
I LOVE your answer – completely agree!!!!! Thank you!!!
Sharon,
I am so proud of your video and I just wish it was easier to share the message with other people. I just feel like I have to tell them to watch “Forks Over Knives” and “Food Matters” and other documentaries to see if they will get it! But I have hope that, one by one, we can share this message so that our people can stop dying of cancer and heart diseases! Thank you for helping share the message!!
If animals were in our position on the food chain, then wouldn’t give us an ounce of mercy and compassion. Remember that the next time you go on another one of your self aggrandizing rants.
*they wouldn’t
I’ve been vegan for 25 years and consider it one of the best decisions of my life (my doctor agrees). I lost 25 lbs and kept it off all these years!
Here’s a video to help everyone understand why so many people are making this life affirming choice and why the number of vegans has doubled in the US in less than 3 years.: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKr4HZ7ukSE
Also, here’s a link for everyone who wants to join the revolution: 21-Day Vegan Kickstart http://www.pcrm.org/health/diets/kickstart/kickstart-programs
Just wanted to let you know there’s a small typo in the zinc section! “Omniovorous diet” or omnivorous diet?
Delete this after you’ve read it! No need to keep nit-picky comments like mine.
I have to go to work so don’t have time to read. I’ll read later. At work there are too many vegetarians. I believe one picked it up to suck up to the others. I notice they always get cold and are cranky. They’re all women of course, and I think witchy is a better word.
I continue to spread the word about your site and sound advice that is so well documented. Your information has been crucial to resolving my heartburn and esophageal spasms that were so bad, it was causing me to lose my voice. After seeing specialists, I was diagnosed with GERD and prescribed prevacid and gaviscon which failed to work. It was your article, “Get rid of heartburn and GERD forever in 3 simple steps” that put me on the road to recovery. I was tested positive for H-pylori which was cleared up with an H-Pac and now I follow your guidelines and have been heartburn free for 6 months plus my voice has returned to “almost normal”!
I purchased your book which is amazing but it is your dedication to this site that has been a life-saver for many of us who read it faithfully. Thank you so much for all the hard work you do. Best wishes in all that you do.
I wanted to add that the doctors recommended a low-acid, vegetarian diet which I tried for a few months and only felt worse. The legumes were particularly difficult for me to digest no matter how I tried to cook them. My stomach felt like it was cannibalizing itself. Once I cleared up the H-Pylori and resumed a regular Paleo diet, my health was back to normal within weeks. I am not saying that what worked for me would work for the next person but I would suggest they at least try it if they are experiencing the same symptoms as I did.
This post is also to express concern for the increasing personal attacks, not at the data, but at the people posting. Why is this moving away from an adult discussion of the data to a “if you are not with us, you are against us” mentality? We all have the personal choice to eat what we want and this forum is simply another place to provide us with specific information regarding these choices. It is only one part of a toolkit that you compile to live your life.
IF you find that some of the information conflicts with what you believe in, then by all means, present your argument. But don’t let it get personal because then your message is lost and where is the value in that?
Thank you again Chris for your hard work and information that works for me.
I have read this whole string of “crap”. I find it peculiar that there are only Vegans/Vegetarians testifying that they eventually had to start to eat real food after a 5, 10, 20 year stint of not. It takes a lot of courage to Denise Minger/Lierre Keith yourself and admit you were damaging your body.
What is absolutely hilarious is with every testimony a Vego will pop on and say “you weren’t doing it right!” Are you kidding me! When you make an active choice to eat Vego, it aint easy, it is like a full time job! Eating correctly is not that tuff, eat real food. It strikes me that a complete Vego diet is nothing more than a hodgepodge of side dishes from around the world that were meant to be eaten with some form of animal product. But instead of the animal products the side dishes are put together 3 to 6 at a time in an attempt to replicate something healthy.
The other peculiar thing is, Kressers web site is like the last place I would expect to see Vegos in full force. Which confirms that the McDougal / Ornish Vego propaganda notification networks is still alive and well. In other words post anything on the interwebs that may even slightly question the Vegos and prepare for mountains of bullshit propaganda, and statements like, “meat rots in your gut” which disqualifies the poster as having a working frontal lobe.
Eat real food. It is that easy. And for those of you all touchy feely about killing things, thank your lucky stars you live in the “now” because if it were 200 years ago, life would have been really rough for you.
Why are people prohibited from saying that something is wrong?
Amen. It is only in the last few generations that people haven’t had to kill for their meals. My grandparents had to raise and kill their own chickens in post-war Europe because there was little else to eat. I am grateful I don’t have to do that but I would if I had to. Even when I was vegan, I knew that was reality and the convenience of industrial society is what has allowed veganism to thrive… which is why they are causing as much harm as good (at least as much as the rest of us).
From the Vegan Society website (so ironic isn’t it): A study in the UK of 34,696 adults, over five years, found that the vegans studied had a higher risk of bone fracture than the meat eaters, fish eaters and vegetarians studied. This appeared to be a result of their lower calcium intake – no increase in risk was found in those vegans consuming at least 525 mg of calcium per day – and highlights the importance of ensuring an adequate intake of calcium.4 Recommended intakes are given in Calcium Requirements above.
After reading all the comments here, my disdain for Vegans has been re-verified. The ego of Vegans knows no bounds.I was ‘fluffy’ as a vegetarian and only got lean and had much more energy when I added meat back to my diet. Same with my son-in-law who was forced to be vegetarian by his dad and was chubby until he started eating meat. Only in fantasyland is being vegan or vegetarian not based on starchy carbs and grains. If you choose to not eat meat or dairy—good for you. But keep your big vegan nose out of my business—because meat is good for many people as we are all individuals. This concept seems impossible for Vegans to accept.
You guys didn’t know how to eat right. Did you know vitamins A D E and K require fats to be carried within the body? Do you also know where to get iodine, and do you also get sufficient vitamin D, sodium and fats?
“You guys didn’t know how to eat right”
Exactly– You have a point, because to ‘eat right’ we needed eggs and meat, which we eat now and have energy, muscle definition and have lost the fluff from grains.
My disdain for meat-eaters has also been verified.
you are definitely misinformed about the vegan diet. b12 is the ONLY vitamin i have to supplement, and all my other nutrient levels are fine. there is just as much calcium in a couple tablespoons of tahini or chia seeds as there is in milk, and there is iron in almost every food i eat – calorie for calorie, there’s more iron in beans than meat. AND beans have other nutrients such as fiber and phytochemicals that animal protein does not. also, it’s been proven time and time again that milk proteins are carcinogenic… if it were suddenly known that cigarettes provide 30% of your daily calcium, you wouldn’t become a smoker, right? milk isn’t any different. but hey, i guess all of these claims are just an excuse for people to eat high fat animal protein
Sorry but the iron in plant foods isn’t nearly as bio-available as the heme iron in meat.
Then I guess the herbivore animals would all be iron deficient? Ridiculous.
Herbivore animals have different digestive systems than us, which is how they can absorb plant iron better than we can.
Um….you AREN’T a herbivore.
It is ridiculous to assume that herbivores have the same digestive tract as that of humans. Theirs is specially adapted to obtain nutrients from plants.
If you want to show that iron is not bio-available to humans, you would have to show the science reports to confirm this. Saying things out of thin air is not going to convince anyone.
Actually, our teeth and digestive system is closer to that of an Herbivore’s than any other. Check out the chart in this article:
I am a former animal-rights oriented vegan (at least I thought of myself as vegan at the time) and I was embarrassingly self-righteous about it. Now that I know more about human nutrition, agriculture, and sustainability (I have a degree in crop and soil science) I feel that incorporating carefully chosen, locally-grown animal products is a far more rational and ethical choice for me. (In fact, just about all “veggie” organic agriculture is COMPLETELY DEPENDENT ON CAFOs, so I actually don’t know that I’ve ever met an authentic vegan, but that’s a topic for another post). Anyway, I’m here to post today’s first challenge of the day:
I will happily send $100 (via paypal) to the first poster who can provide a reasonable three-day meal plan for two children, ages 9 and 2.
Here are the rules:
1. It must be vegan.
2. It must be based on whole, minimally processed foods.
3. It must be soy and gluten free.
4. It must meet children’s basic nutritional needs, including the U.S. RDA for vitamin, mineral, protein, and fatty acid requirements, without resorting to supplements. (However, for argument’s sake, lets make an exception for Vitamin B 12).
5. The ratio of Omega 6 to Omega 3 fats must be less than 4:1.
I post this challenge in peace. I hope that it will be instructive for everyone, including me! I will prepare the meals for my children and post our experience/thoughts on Youtube. Thanks and good luck!
Simple.
For breakfast, eat organic rolled or quick-cooking oatmeal with fresh or dried fruit.
For lunch, use dried chickpeas soaked for at least 8 hours(or overnight) and boil for 10 mins, then drain and serve whole or mashed in a food processor. Add sea salt for iodine if required. Spinkle flaxseeds if more omega 3 is desired. Variation: add a little tumeric powder for smoked ham flavor.
Serve fruits such as honey melon or kiwi for dessert.
For a dinner, the 2 yr old can eat pureed green peas or pureed boiled carrots or pumpkin. The 9 yr old can also eat those or eat additional spiralized zuchini spaghetti served with avocado sauce with lemon juice or pureed tomato sauce with diced capsicum. Add fresh alfafa or pea sprouts.
Repeat for all 3 days using different flavoring for all meals.
OMG—I’m hungry for eggs and meat just reading this. WHO can eat this and be satisfied. My blood sugar would be so screwed up with all the starchy carbs and no sustenance. Where is the healthy fat to help with neural development???? Try offering a healthy teenage boy boiled pumpkin with peas for dinner and see what happens…LOL!!
I know….this is just too ridiculous for words. Okay kids….we are having a big bowl of chickpeas with sprinkled flaxseeds for lunch……three days in a friggin row!!!!! But don’t worry……I’ll switch up the flavorings….turmeric Monday, oregano Tuesday, saffron Wednesday. Then we rinse and repeat.
I have to go because I’m crying too hard to see the computer screen….
There is nothing wrong in having the same foods for 3 days in a row. Try mocking the African children who have maize everyday of the year. Are you that privileged to think that simplicity is an anomaly?
Actually, Sharon, my family and I were just discussing Timothy’s proposed meal plan last night. My 9 year old asked if I had sent Timothy the $100. I informed him that I absolutely DID NOT because it did not come close to meeting the requirements that I laid out in the challenge, particularly with regard to providing the RDA for various vitamins and minerals. Had his plan at least done that, I would have grudgingly sent him the cash despite the fact that it did in fact contain gluten and was FAR from reasonable.
On your contention that I was “mocking” simple diets: I would actually PREFER to eat the same foods every day IF I considered it a healthy way of eating. However, at best it is not a good choice if one is after optimal health.
Here is a link to a pubmed article on food allergies. You can find many others with similar information: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23282480
“Certain unique food allergens, such as buckwheat, chestnuts, CHICKPEAS (emphasis mine), bird’s nest, and royal jelly, which are consumed extensively by certain Asian populations have resulted in clinical food allergy of little importance in other populations……The high consumption of these foods…..may explain this phenomenon….”
Anyway, Sharon, if you desire to look into this topic further, you will see that food sensitivities and allergies are most common when people consume the same foods day in and day out. In Israel, for example, people are more likely to develop sensitivities to sesame, in Spain to chick peas and lentils, etc. On a related note: I volunteer at a community center, and I met a woman yesterday whose daughter has life- threatening allergies to legumes and nuts. I for one am very happy that they are not strict vegans!
I am not sure that this study is helpful to your point of eating a variety of foods: dust mite and cockroach allergens.
The high consumption of these foods and possibly coupled with cross-reactive tropomyosins from dominant inhalant dust mite and cockroach allergens in this region may explain this phenomenon. In contrast, the prevalence of peanut allergy is relatively low in this region. The reasons for this difference are not apparent. However, this may be a reflection of the general reduced propensity in this region to allergic diseases as seen with asthma.
CONCLUSIONS:
: Further research on food allergy in Asia is warranted because it offers unique opportunities to further our understanding on the influence of population and environment.
There is a study that found the delayed presence of gut microbes to be linked to food allergies and sensitivities.
The full link is posted here,
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v479/n7374_supp/full/479S5a.html
Hi on the Fence,
I’m responding to your other question here, because there is some glitch with the reply buttons. (Chris Kresser, We love you, but we need to be able to see who is responding to whom to have a coherent discussion!)
Anyway On the Fence, I didn’t just pose the challenge for my own family, but for illustration purposes. Certainly, I would prepare MORE vegan meals if the challenge were met, particularly in the summer time, when I have access to more fresh local produce at my farmer’s market and from my CSA. But I don’t believe that trekking in the majority of my food from around the world does the animal world any favors. (As I stated earlier, I don’t believe I have ever met a vegan who is able to follow a purely vegan diet, because organic food production is currently dependent on animal agriculture. So the present question really isn’t WHETHER we should have animal agriculture at all but how it should work. I have yet to hear a coherent plan for how to feed people veganically, i.e., without using the by-products of animal agriculture. Right now, the organic producers buy manure, blood, bone meal, etc. from CAFOs. A very small minority buy it from neighboring organic farms, but it is almost entirely animal centered at its core. In my opinion, the most humane option at present is to only purchase non-animal foods from small scale farms that raise their own livestock with deep care and respect.
If you are referring to the possible contamination of gluten found in oatmeal, then there is the gluten-free version. You can also include black or brown rice porridge for breakfast.
The reason for food allergies can also originate from GMOs and pesticides, the study didn’t say what were the discovered causes of allergies from those foods.
There is a study that found the delayed presence of gut microbes to be linked to food allergies and sensitivities.
http://www.nature.com/…/v479/n7374_supp/full/479S5a.html
People who are spiritual like me can be satisfied on simple foods. If you want eggs, you can make it with chickpea and mashed tofu. If you want meat you can make seitan from gluten flour and oatmeal. You need to be more creative rather than dumpster dive constantly from the meat trash bin.
If I want eggs I will eat eggs. Try some in good yellow grass fed butter. You will not explode, you will simply feel better
I tried it before, felt like shit.
You probably have a bile production problem. Get that looked at. It’s very serious.
Okay, well maybe when I feed my two year old his egg yolks tomorrow I’ll tell him that if he were only more “spiritual”, he wouldn’t need to get the RDA for pesky things like Selenium, Zinc, choline, calcium etc. in his diet.
And if he gets REALLY evolved, maybe he’ll learn to start conversations by calling people “stupid” for having different opinions and/or biological needs.
If I want meat I will eat REAL GRASS FED/FINISHED BEEF
If I want eggs I will eat REAL EGGS FROM FREE RANGE CHICKENS
Timothy Tang, I love that you call yourself spiritual but you entered this site and started calling everyone who eats meat “stupid”. Your spirituality has overwhelmed me and your compassionate attitude has enlightened me.
Oh I forgot. Add peanuts, soaked chia seeds with the fruits, or molasses for added calcium and protein.
You have raised vegan children?
No, I’m homosexual and don’t intend to have children ever. Guess this would be so conflicting against nature right?
No, but I suspected from your meal plans for children, that you have never really fed any. I am a former vegan whos health was undermined by my erroneous beliefs.
That’s because you didn’t know how to eat right.
My 9 year old found it ironic that your proposed meal plan suggested peanuts as a source of added Calcium. And that you thought sea salt was a good source of iodine. And that you proposed next to nothing with selenium or zinc. Maybe he’s just too “stupid” to fit in with the vegan set.
So you think your 9-year old knows sufficiently about nutrients. If that is the case, why don’t you ask him to come up with the 3 day meal plan himself? Ridiculous.
You’re saying that if someone can be wrong about child-related nutrition then it would mean that they never had children? You’re saying that having children would make parents knowledgeable about all things child-related? Another ridiculous statement.
There was no reply option on your other post, so I’m responding here instead:
Yes, in answer to your question about my brilliant son, he probably already knows more about nutrition than 99% of the American population and the ONLY reason we didn’t come up with such a plan together is that we didn’t really see how it was possible to meet the nutritional demands of children by natural vegan foods alone. (And I didn’t even ask for locally grown and sustainable foods, which I probably should have). In their recommended vegan meal plans for kids, you’ll see that even the Physicians’ Committee For Responsible Medicine resorts to recommending Cheerios and Calcium-fortified orange juice and soymilk. The message should be clear: Without heavy supplementation, and reliance on Big Agriculture, it is not clear how a person who eats about 1000 calories a day (like my 2 year old) can possibly obtain the RDA for all essential nutrients. If they don’t think the RDA is really necessary, then the LEAST that they owe parents considering veganism for their child is to come out and admit it!
Sharon,
There was no reply option on your other post, so I’m responding here instead:
Yes, in answer to your question about my brilliant son, he probably already knows more about nutrition than 99% of the American population and the ONLY reason we didn’t come up with such a plan together is that we didn’t really see how it was possible to meet the nutritional demands of children by natural vegan foods alone. (And I didn’t even ask for locally grown and sustainable foods, which I probably should have). In their recommended vegan meal plans for kids, you’ll see that even the Physicians’ Committee For Responsible Medicine resorts to recommending Cheerios and Calcium-fortified orange juice and soymilk. The message should be clear: Without heavy supplementation, and reliance on Big Agriculture, it is not clear how a person who eats about 1000 calories a day (like my 2 year old) can possibly obtain the RDA for all essential nutrients. If they don’t think the RDA is really necessary, then the LEAST that they owe parents considering veganism for their child is to come out and admit it!
So Karin, it sounds like you have done all your research and found that is not possible to feed children on a vegan diet and are a childhood nutrition expert. So I am wondering why you raised this challenge. If it was possible to raise healthy children on a whole unprocessed vegan diet – would you do it? If not – challenge is not worth exploration.
Are you Karin or ‘Sharon’? It seems like you are going through an identity crisis. But anyway, thanks for the discussion, I need to read a magazine now.
The point is Timothy Tang that infants and children have very specific nutritional needs especially for neurological development that vegan foods canNOT supply! If an older teenager decides on their own to go vegan or vegetarian, that should be their choice but with a caveat that they could be missing out on very important nutrients that they won’t notice for a decade or two. If eating Vegan makes you feel good—-go for it. But as a person with no children and obviously no knowledge of the proper nutritional needs of growing children, I suggest you either do some research and base your suggestions on that or just accept that you could be wrong thinking YOUR diet is for everyone.
What specific needs do children have? Care to clarify?
I am not submitting a 3 day meal plan in hopes of gaining $$ – so just passing this along and substitute out the soy for instance almond milk .
http://www.pcrm.org/health/diets/vsk/vegetarian-starter-kit-children
http://nutritionfacts.org/index.php?s=children
The PCRM website’s meal plan doesn’t provide certain key nutrients, doesn’t provide them in a whole foods form, and sneakily adds things like soymilk (which is synthetically fortified) to avoid addressing the deficiencies of these foods as they exist in their natural state. Try doing the math on calcium and zinc with the sample meals. Good luck finding Vitamin K2 in these meals. Not to mention cofactors that we are yet to discover! I didn’t see a sample plan provided by nutritionfacts.org, run by a guy who incidentally seems to be suffering from some sort of chronic wasting disease…..
I checked out that PCRM site again and noticed that the best it can do to provide kids with enough iron and zinc is to add food-like substances like Cheerios to the meal plan. Absolutely shameful. And I used to be a member. (By the way, do vegans really think that these industrially produced foods are manufactured and transported in a way that doesn’t involve the deaths of animals?)
A family of 6 can feed itself quite well on a single dairy cow that is slaughtered at the end of a year. The manure that that cow survives can fertilize all of the supplementary foods that said family would need. One life taken.
Let see an estimate for the number of lives taken in the manufacture and transport of the almond juice and Cheerios alone for the same family of six over the course of a year….Anyone?
Sorry, I was just trying to help apparently I didn’t. I was new to this site but now it appears to me that no new information or evidence-based info is being exchanged just tired same-old “arguments”.
Somehow it seems strange to me that you tell the story of your choices but if someone else has a story you will are not open to hearing it-but instead “run by a guy who incidentally seems to be suffering from some sort of chronic wasting disease…..” : Dr. Greger’s work, health and story is quite amazing albeit different from yours.
One last thing before I go…over my many years as a nurse, I have had the privilege of seeing human body from inside and outside; in pieces and as a whole – it can be resilient and survive but we as people are often blinded by an idea.
Best of health to you and your family.
Hi there. Thank you for the wishes of health. I wish you the same.
I guess I didn’t really perceive you as trying to help….considering that I was specifically asking for a three day meal plan based on WHOLE FOODS and not synthetic additives, one that was gluten and soy free and met all of a child’s nutritional requirements. You however chose to post not a plan but a link to meal options that included heavily processed foods with synthetic additives, made with wheat and refined oats and soy. I mean, did you REALLY think that I couldn’t have found THAT myself? And if you’re so opposed to collecting $100, couldn’t you have given it to a darn charity? We’re talking 3 days of nutritionally complete, natural vegan meals here….Is that really so hard?
I fear that the answer is yes.
So who did the research. The meat and diary industries? There is absolutely nothing wrong with being vegan. In fact I have never felt this healty. I even was able to turn around my diabetes. Hmmmm
I just want to say that people who still think that meat is the only nutritious food is just plain stupid and backdated, and only want to believe so because they cannot move away from the addiction of strong flavors. There is a proper way to be vegan without facing the nutrient deficiencies. Stupid people can just remain in their stupid meat diet.
Ha ha ha! I don’t happen to eat meat, but I can tell you that a whole lot of paleo-style eaters would be more than happy to eat soy ice cream and boca burgers and bread slathered with Earth Balance if taste were such a priority!
Bone broths and liver aren’t exactly addictive foods, lol.
Hmmm……then why does my mouth water when I think of butter fried liver and onions and salty bone broth with lots of fatty marrow???? Not every body can thrive on plant foods. I know mine didn’t and I am so much happier and healthier eating plenty of healthy fatty meats with my gobs of veggies and fruits. Taking out grains and legumes was the healthiest decision of my life.
I totally agree with you, KTB. My only point was that people aren’t ADDICTED to liver like they are to Doritos, for example. They might find it desirable, however, because they are in tune with what their body needs. The notion that people who eat meat are only doing it for the sake of their taste buds is just patently absurd.
If you have done your research properly, you would have known that vegans go back to eating meat because they crave salty foods and fats too perhaps, because they didn’t eat a balanced vegan diet and deprived themselves from much salt and fat.
KTM even said he/she wants to eat salty foods, your 2-person team-up is like going backwards.
Or, if you do your research, you may find that it’s because they develop things like osteoporosis, gaping holes in their teeth, and neurological disorders.
That’s because they didn’t know how to eat right and suffer from deficiencies. In another words, they were stupid. If only vegans can suffer from osteoporosis then all the people in the world who suffers from osteoporosis must be vegans? Not true. They did not consume enough calcium, the foods they bought were grown on nutrient-deficient soils that is the norm nowadays, they did not take enough fats to carry the fat-soluble vitamins and they did not take enough B12.
And if you did your research, rather than just calling everyone else “stupid”, you’d know that dietary calcium is rarely the cause of osteoporosis.
Dietary protein enhances absorption, Grain-based carbohydrates work against you by damaging the gut lining.
But Paleo can save you: http://robbwolf.com/2009/03/19/paleo-vs-osteoporosis/
Timothy Tang by “stupid people ” do you mean the 99.999+% of humanity that is not currently vegan? My God !! have we stupid humans been doing it all wrong for the last 21/2 million years?
Does it make any sense to you as to why there are no reproducing vegan cultures? Why one has never been recorded? Veganism is an intellectual construct based on a defective view of nature. It often reflects an extreme bodily negative attitude. One has to ignore or over-ride the 911 calls ones body is sending. It is a form of slow self-righteous starvation.
LOL Appeal to nature fallacy.
cavemen didn’t use computers and you are using one now? Appeal to nature fallacy.
That reminds me, Timothy….did you make the computer that you’re on? Because last I checked, commercially produced computers are far from vegan. You’re making this too easy.
The idea is to minimize suffering to animals as much as possible. If I wanted to minimize all possible suffering to animals I would have killed myself. Maybe that notorious vegan girl from Britain killed herself for such a reason too.
And I choose to buy 2nd hand computers unlike most people who buy new ones.
“The idea is to minimize all possible suffering to animals as much as possible.”
Are you implying that you would DIE if you gave up use of that computer?!? Or can you be honest and admit that you just really LIKE to use your computer?
After all, it would have been POSSIBLE for you to just give up computers altogether, right? (As I did when I went vegan, giving up TV, film, cameras, etc.)
And if your second-hand computer had been sold to another bloke while you stayed true to your vegan principles, THAT would have prevented a new computer from being sold.
Timothy Tang “Minimize the suffering” This is exactly the distorted view of nature and the natural world i was talking about. A quality is added to the natural world and its cycles that simply does not belong there, it is “compassion”. Every living form is happily devouring other living forms in order to maintain its very existence. The purpose of an herbivore is to feed a carnivore, and most die in a very natural way, being killed and eaten by a carnivore. The vegan excuse, minimizing animal suffering comes from a disassociation from nature, not from a closeness. You have avoided answering my question so I will answer it for you.There are no naturally occurring vegan cultures because in the long run it is inherently nutrient deficient and anti life. Veganism is often the expression of a bodily and vital negativity. Self deniai is reveled in and justified because it is for a “good cause” Animal rights !!. Veganism is itself a form of animal abuse, it is the abuse of the animals most intimate to us, our bodies. Many many animals are killed growing grains and vegetables. Are their deaths qualitatively better than the deaths of animals used directly for food?
Raising land animals up to 60 billion heads is not natural.
“no naturally occurring vegan cultures”
There are lots of monks in Asia who are vegan. The advancement of the B12 supplement and other minerals such as iodine also allows modern people to go vegan unlike precious generations.
I said reproducing vegan cultures,surviving over generations. The negative effects and nutrient deficiencies will manifest more and more over generations until there will be no reproduction. The only person I know that was raised vegan was one of my teachers, a Taoist monk, raised in a monastery because he was orphaned as a child. He said that he started eating animal food the day he left the monastery. He has had lifelong bone problems. You point to an extremely isolated, miniscule part of society as an example of the universalviabilityof a vegan diet and ridicule me and dismiss my arguments saying that most of the world does not eat this way?
Monks don’t reproduce
A monastery is not a naturally occurring culture. It is based on intellectual and emotional constructs.No one naturally chooses to eat this way.
Here come the experts, are you all right?
Meat-eating contributes more to climate change:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-greenhouse-hamburger/
The world is overpopulated, but that still doesn’t mean you can get B12 from plants. The Vegetarian Myth is a great read on the subject, highly recommend it.
True but we don’t need the middle “meat” to get B12.
PS: I have read the Vegetarian Myth
You can expose mushrooms to sunlight for more vitamin D
“Here is a simple experiment we did one summer afternoon in Kamilche Point, Wash. We compared several forms of organically-grown shiitake mushrooms, which had starting levels of 100 IU/100 grams. We compared the vitamin D levels of three sets of mushrooms, all from the same crop. The first was grown and dried indoors. The second set was dried outdoors in the sunlight with their gills facing down. The third set of mushrooms was dried outdoors in the sunlight with their gills facing upward for full sun exposure. The most vitamin D was found in shiitake dried with gills up that were exposed to sunlight for two days, six hours per day. The vitamin D levels in these mushrooms soared from 100 IU/100 grams to nearly 46,000 IU/100 grams (see chart). Their stems, though, produced very little vitamin D, only about 900 IU. Notably, vitamin D levels dropped on the third day, probably due to overexposure to UV. “
FTA:
“Some obscure species of mushrooms can provide large amounts of vitamin D, but these mushrooms are rarely consumed and often difficult to obtain. ”
Wrong! The two grocery stores I frequent both have large amounts of various types of mushrooms all the time. http://mushroominfo.com/all-about-vitamin-d/
My goodness! Such a large amount of dogmatic preaching and not enough listening by the varied range of pretentious vegetarians. We choose our own paths as dynamic and unique individuals. What works for some, and not coincidentally, what works for some family lines, does not work for all as evidenced by the ongoing cracking of the human genome code. There will always be outliers and exceptions and that is what precisely reinforces our uniqueness. Instead of hurling insults and creating the perception that this article promotes the consumption of CAFO meat, just read and digest the comments. Nobody in this forum has given a thumbs up to this inhumane practice and yet the vegetarian brigade repeatedly thumps that bible.
We all choose our path and few can be argued as morally superior to another because, as an active member of any society, our presence and habits have far reaching implications on all creatures, sentient or otherwise. The individual may think more highly of their own beliefs but that is inherently biased. And, when you only surround yourself with like-minded people you tend to only strengthen the vigor of your heel position.
Lol, my thoughts pretty much, lots of soap box preaching, riding around on personal hobby horses, certainly some not prepared to accept that we all can have a valid opinion, and that everyone is different. There are some on here determined to shove their views down everyone else’s throats, not the best way to go about things.
What a can of worms has been opened
Thankyou to Chris, he has certainly been a great help to me, I have bought his book, but also appreciate all the free advice given by him and others
Chris, I see many beliefs; myths (and culture) surfacing in this discussion and as an RN having worked in many settings with many people so I am not stranger to this. Therefore, I respect you for your gentle words in this post. However, many are sweeping statements and these could easily be said about animal/dairy eaters and to me don’t make a compelling argument for optimal health choices. Maybe you will do a follow up post on “Why You Should Think Twice About Animal and Dietary Diets”.
For 1 instance:
“Vegan diets, in particular, are almost completely devoid of certain nutrients that are crucial for physiological function.” I would challenge this as not factually backed by meta-analysis and research studies. I could easily agree that some “vegans” may not be eating a healthy balanced diet that could be devoid of some nutrients if prolonged – eating Oreos, coke, potato chips, licorice, etc. If one eats a whole foods, plant-based diet only one supplement B12 (due to our sanitation practices) may be necessary if not eating any B12 fortified foods.
However, the exact same could be said for the majority eating the standard, processed meat, poultry, and dairy diet – just because people eat animal products doesn’t change the fact they too are devoid of many nutrients that a plants provide.
And you actually advocate people to take certain supplements in a link in this post so not much difference on vegans taking for optimal health if needed.
Also, I am puzzled that you would have cited a research paper (12) that addresses “nutrients of concern” but clearly states vegetarians are healthier with lower mortality rates: “As a result of these factors, vegetarians typically have lower body mass index, serum total and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels, and blood pressure; reduced rates of death from ischemic heart disease; and decreased incidence of hypertension, stroke, type 2 diabetes, and certain cancers than do non-vegetarians.”
Lastly, and most curious – you opened by saying: “Some are compelled by the environmental impact of confinement animal feeding operations (CAFO). Others are guided by ethical concerns or religious reasons. I respect these reasons and appreciate anyone who thinks deeply about the social and spiritual impact of their food choices—even if my own exploration of these questions has led me to a different answer. “
You didn’t address how your social, spiritual, ethical, environmental impacts, etc. exploration lead you to a “different answer” – only the same belief that eating animal products = is to eat optimally. Change has to happen at the personal level to impact a global system that is no longer sustainable, if for no other reason than we should be good ancestors or there will be no food:
“In every deliberation, we must consider the impact on the seventh generation… even if it requires having skin as thick as the bark of a pine.” (Iroquois Law)
Maybe you missed it but Chris has repeatedly stated that some of the anti-meat conclusions in research papers (12) do not distinguish between eating highly processed meats such as hot dogs and pepperoni versus eating only grass-fed beef. Then there are also unaccounted-for confounders such as meat eaters more frequently engaging in unhealthy behaviors including smoking and alcohol consumption.
Speaking of the Iroquois, which my great-grandmother was:
Meat was also a large part of the Iroquois diet, it provided them strength and allowed them to endure the harsh winters.The men were counted on to bring the tribe its meat.The men hunted a vast range of animals using bows and arrows to kill black bear, elk, deer, rabbits, and wolves. They trapped wild turkey, ducks and other birds. They also hunted turtles for their meat and shells. Like many indigenous groups the Iroquois did not waste any part of an animal. Often bones and other unwanted parts were made into tools, spoons, knives and other household items. Whatever the men brought back from the hunt was cooked by the women and shared among the whole village.
Oh yes, the Native peoples lived off the land and used all the tools they could to survive as did all our ancestors. Its just that the masses don’t live that way today. We need to keep evolving. Meat was used for most generations (and few populations today) when and where it could be found hunted down – which involved miles of walking and or running – for the masses we don’t hunt, run walk for miles, work to clean the meat and work to fashion tools. We drive to the store, hunt at the meat, fish, poultry counter. I am referencing populations not individuals – because we do have a very small number of people able to get true wild animals for food. I just don’t think we humans stopped evolving – no longer need wisdom teeth (jaw is getting smaller) the planet needs us to do so for generations coming – some thing has to change in how we are destroying our mother earth. PS: I don’t want to go back – I like modern conveniences, sutures, antibiotics, c-sections (rather that die in childbirth, etc.)
Modern conveniences and ancestral eating do not need to be in opposition. As a species we benefit from improvements to medicine but we do not benefit from so-called improvements in food, particularly industrial processing.
As for our jaws getting smaller, evolution may or may not be in play. There are theories that diminishment due to improper nutrition may be a factor as well.
In the previous post, OnTheFence, one of the vegan flock mentioned an Iroquois quote to support her position. Well, I’m using the same quote to support mine as I am only 3 generations removed from my great grandmother, and so it appears the Iroquois way should be maintained for at least four more generations; it is a way of eating that is still relevant as the time elapse is not enough time to have evolved much as a species. So, eating plentiful meat (from the entire carcass) seems like something I am optimally designed for. And so are you, if you open your mind to it. Whether I kill my own cute-faced prey is irrelevant as I don’t find this immoral, certainly no more than a lion devouring a wilderbeast while it is still alive. Nor is it relevant that I’m at a computer now or that I live in a large city, etc. I eat for health; animal products are exquisitely nutritious and healthy.
This is how I hear these conversations breaking down: On one side “I’m tired of hearing….” “I want a belly full of bacon.” On the other side the arguments are always about the whole, never about the individual. In other words people who eat vegan diets are expressing here they do so after considering the whole, or others – even if they went back to meat at some point. People who are defensive about meat, or say they just like it are usually defending their individual interest. Be all that as it may, the way we are living is not-sustainable. Let’s hope there’s still time to change course, but it will require the willingness to change, and not stubborn self-interest. Some people feel it’s already too late, but whatever people feel, we’re on the path…
Well you are wrong Erica…
I HAVE considered the “whole” and am convinced (as I already stated in earlier comments) that the only sustainable way to feed the world and save the ecosystem which sustains us, is with small, local farms, including the rearing of livestock.
Hi FrankG, how are you working toward this end? Are you able to farm or buy only directly from farms? How will small local farms provide enough of the animal products to feed the masses? I don’t have answers – only that it appears the buy decreasing consumption (which is healthy) supple and demand will slowly cause a correction.
oops typos: only that it appears that by decreasing consumption (which is healthy) supply and demand will slowly cause a correction.
I’d also like to bring up results of the curing effect of cancer, heart disease, and diabetes by many many people now who have adopted a whole foods plant based vegan diet. If we were supposed to eat meat, cheese, and eggs, then why are all these people curing our top killing diseases by removing these animal products completely from their diets. Also, the physiology of our own bodies dictates that we do best with minimal to no acidic foods, our physiological system is not made for processing acidic foods and prefers to be on the alkaline side 7.5 so this bring up the truth about all and every animal product that exists, they are all highly acidic! An acidic body gives cancer a place to thrive because an acidic body has more inflammation and decreased circulation. Cancer thrives where there is decreased circulation, and it was shown in 1907 that cancer dies in an alkaline environment. Another study that was done, in fact the largest and most long term study on human nutrition that took over fifty years to complete The China Study that no one has yet been able to debunk because they can not debunk that big of a study. It not only took many doctors and medical scientists but because of the amount of time and effort put into that study it was reviewed and the results were astounding. Dairy is one of the largest cancer promoters that exists today, even more so than tobacco.
China Study “debunked”…
http://rawfoodsos.com/the-china-study/
China Study? *sigh*
Frank already answered that one. Welcome to 4 years ago!
Want a long term study? Try Framingham.
Next you’ll learn that meat doesn’t cause cancer, saturated fat and dietary cholesterol don’t cause heart disease, heart healthy whole grains are anything but, that “vegetable oils” are one of the worst things we ever invented, and that sugar is a wee bit of a problem.
No. Just no. I know that you’ve given up your morals to start eating meat again and this is your excuse, but no. Really try to come up with something better. Nutritionfacts.org is a great place to start. Good luck.
How dare you judge others by your own “moral” standards!?!
I do not see eating meat as in any way amoral or immoral.
Get off your high horse and if you want to see respect for all life you might try starting with your own species.
Do meat eaters troll veg*an websites the way you’re doing here? You’re here strictly to preach your own misguided agenda.
Yet I never see the reverse happening.
Either way, believe whatever you want but don’t wander into someone else’s playground and start dictating the rules.
Or, as Eddie Murphy said, “it’s my house, and if you don’t like it……”
Actually, since i am on the fence I visit different sites/conversations and of course, then do my own research.
Paleo/meat-eaters on numerous on the veg sites and most are not at all kind! Even here one of the “meat men” slammed all veg women – maybe they are “witchy” not due to food but they have to work with him – sorry as a woman I couldn’t resist that one.
That is why this topic is not a battle of research – but from what i see and for me a battle of the heart. I am leaning a bit – the arguments on both sides are getting old. I think the amount of research and clinical outcomes on the mostly plants, rare meat or vegan side is greater and more convincing. Sustainability aspects = veggie. Animal CAFOs for those of us who don’t have farms or farmers near us = veg.
Personal stories have too many variables – health vegans and healthy meat eaters – but then some % smokers live long healthy lives – so I look at decreasing risk.
I was a vegetarian for over 20 (!) years so I speak from experience. While this diet suited me just fine for several years (a good clean out?) it was not healthy for me in the long haul. My thyroid was shot (too much soy?) and I was thin but low in muscle. During this period my first husband developed severe heart disease (he followed a low fat vegetarian diet) – needed 4 bypasses and heart valve replacement surgery. He survived only a year after surgery and was diagnosed with “failure to thrive”. I believe years of too little protein damage his heart ( a muscle) and left him without the resources to recover.
I like to remind people who are on strict diets not to get too cocky about it. The diet you follow today may well NOT be the same one you follow years from now. You may find yourself “eating crow”. I used to teach macrobiotic cooking classes. I would NEVER thought I’d trade my tofu for a steak.
If you have thyroid issues it could meant you were deficient in iodine. There are fat-soluble vitamins that need fats to be transported within the body. Too much high GI carbs in one setting can lead to inflammation of the blood vessels and glycation, which both can leave to heart disease. Omega 3 fatty acids has been found to lessen heart disease. Olive oil has been found to damage the endothelium(blood vessels) that can worsen heart disease.
Great article Chris! Thank you for sharing! After trying a vegan diet in college that left me feeling tired and sick I realized that it is NOT the way to go! I’m follow the Weston A Price/Paleo diet now today, in better health than ever before, as well as lean & muscular!
Hi Sylvia, as an RN MBA myself I am wondering what vegan diet you were eating in college that made you “jump” to Price? I had looked at several of the Price research articles and commentary – so many points are unscientific and find mythical – for instance: “…the diet of modern American women is so appalling, and their preparation for successful breastfeeding so lacking, that their breast milk provides no better nourishment for their infants than factory-made formula.”
High protein diets will help short term for
“lean” but can’t be healthfully sustained long term – just one paper with multiple research cited as example: http://www.pcrm.org/pdfs/health/High-Protein-Diets.pdf
Eat meat and prosper. End of story…
I have been on a vegetarian diet for the majority of 40 years. My annual blood work does not find me lacking in any of the nutritional elements discussed in your article. Like most people, I do take supplements….
But the MOST important reason to be vegetarian/vegan is the cruelty of factory farming and the murder of cogent, sensitive animals.
Other important reasons:
…the enormous cost to our planet to raise animals for food. They eat more grain etc per pound than it would take to sustain hungry humans.
…destruction of the rainforests to make room for cattle grazing.
Our planet is in serious ecological difficulty, part of which can be offset with a vegetarian/vegan diet.
Stop letting your taste buds dictate your conscience.
What about the fact that in the wild these “sensitive cogent” animals tend to eat each other, ripping bodies apart without regard to humaneness?
And what about all that forest land being changed to more and more intensively farmed crop fields, causing run-off of fertilizers and pesticides as well as depletion of essential micronutrients and microorganisms from the soil?
I’m tired of vegans and vegetarians assuming this holier than thou attitude.
Actually the rain forests are being ripped apart for growing more feed for cattle and for raising “grass fed” cow flesh. A larger amount of green house gasses are caused by cattle than all of the vehicles on the planet put together. The run off of feces creating massive acres of dead zones. The number one destroyer of our planet is animal agriculture.
It’s like someone opens a tap and out pours all the exact same vegetarian/vegan verbal diarrhea… dressed up as pseudoscience, or social, or moral commentary with the (probably sincere but hopelessly misinformed) devotees mindlessly repeating what they have read, or been told by other vega*tarians… without even pausing to question any of it, or bothering to read earlier comments where many of these points have already been addressed. What a monumental waste of everyone’s time.
I like what Frank said and Erica too…even though they might seem somewhat contradictory.
I’ve made the decision based on my own experiences, medical advice, etc. to eat some meat. But to really reduce the amount (s) I was eating previously. I didn’t feel good when I tried to be a vegetarian in the past and somehow I gained weight. I probably craved carbs. Now, I’m eating no grain, no sugar, no junk foods, small amounts of animal products, lots of vegetables…..just doing the best I can. I think that is all anyone can do. And I see my doctors regularly and have my vitamins tested and so forth.
But I have seen those documentaries about animal cruelty. The things Erica mentioned. It is horrid.
Even though I still eat some meat, I feel like the excessive consumption and demand for meat likely helped to cause such atrocious behaviors.mGreed, high demand, competition, lack of humane and appropriate regulations, etc.
IF you can accept people see things differently and move forward….What can the general population do, both vegans and meat eaters, to help protest these in-humane behaviors in this industry? Is there any hope for change?
The idea that vegetables are nutrient dense is a bit of a myth. Dr Matt Lalonde offers an explanation toward the end of his lecture on nutrient density. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwbY12qZcF4
You mention bacon as being a processed meat, in the same category as hot dogs. Just why is bacon bad, and is the same true for uncured bacon?
I think we are just obligated to move towards awareness and compassion, away from defensiveness and self-involvement. To become more and more aware of the whole. I don’t know why we’re so separated from the natural world – the only beings that move in disharmony. Kind of makes me feel Adam and the apple came from someplace… To come up with a 360 degree understanding of what we choose and why. It doesn’t matter if the world is over or if it makes a difference or if it’s too late.
While we are alive we have to figure out what our purpose is and how we are going to play our cards. Most people who experience suffering or the suffering of others have an experience of awakening that changes their behavior towards compassion. The only thing anyone can ask of anyone else is to be open to exposing themselves to new information and to become mindful of their daily choices.
For me – although I’d been a pescatarian for many years once, recently I’d been happily eating a little meat for over 25 years, not thinking anything about it. I recently completed health coach certification at The Institute for Integrative Nutrition, which was a great intro. Broccoli, good, kale, good… beef. hmmm.. There was only one lecture during the whole year on factory farming, by an ex-rancher, but it stayed with me. Then I met a man sitting in Central Park who owns a company that provides alot of beef to Whole Foods and he said to me “I’d never eat that stuff.” Just another piece of the puzzle that stayed in my mind. Then I got on Facebook for the first time a few months ago and started following dog rescues and somehow the cows and pigs and chickens got in there as well, and I began to be offered the opportunity to see things I had never seen – dogs boiled alive, dogs baked alive into flat pancakes, cows hacked apart while still not quite dead, baby chicks being dumped into a macerator by the thousands, thousands of livestock dieing on these boats of hell from Australia to the Middle East for what I call fetish slaughter…. I thought it might challenge my sanity, but I also thought I could not make believe it didn’t exist. So then what? I don’t grow my own chickens in the backyard, I don’t have a cow to milk. I don’t want anyone doing that violence in my name. Frankly I feel the people who are forced to do that in order to make a living are experiencing not much less violence than the animals they kill and it makes them brutal. That’s where I am now. I take everything into account and I try to make each decision mindfully and in the present moment.. I struggle but more often than not I am making them to come out on the side of all and not only my own interest.
First paragraph of this blog post…
“There are many reasons why people choose to go vegetarian or vegan. Some are compelled by the environmental impact of confinement animal feeding operations (CAFO). Others are guided by ethical concerns or religious reasons. I respect these reasons and appreciate anyone who thinks deeply about the social and spiritual impact of their food choices—even if my own exploration of these questions has led me to a different answer.”
I agree with Chris… my own exploration of these questions has led me to a different answer.
We are each of us allowed to choose what we eat, where it comes from and how we get it, just forget the sanctimonious, holier-than-thou, preachy stuff, guilt trips, pseudo-science etc.. to try and convince others that your way is the only way.
Preachy stuff? You mean like the suffering and death of billions of animals? That’s not preachy stuff that’s compassion. Try to get over all of this other b.s.
Preachy stuff like you trying to force your world-view down my throat… I’m not the one bothered by your personal choices or what you eat and yet you seem overly bothered about mine
I respect your choices to do as you please but please don’t dress it up as anything else in order to rationalise your choices.
It’s preachy because you try to persuade by emotion rather than by science, and you fail to acknowledge that
a) all living things have to die, and
b) in the wild, many animals eat each other, often killing in very brutal ways.
To those that disagree with this article, would you please get a blood test for B12, calcium, iron, zinc, EPA & DHA, vitamin A & D, and post your results here? And repeat yearly, since for some it takes years for deficiencies to develop. Would you be willing to do that?
One more point, make sure the B12 test is a test for holotranscobalamin.
http://chriskresser.com/what-everyone-especially-vegetarians-should-know-about-b12-deficiency
David makes a point that I forgot to include in my earlier post.
Nutrients deficiencies are not a daily, weekly, or even monthly concern. Fasting regimens of up to 40 days where NO nutrients are consumed are routinely administered to patients without deficiency symptoms occurring because the body stores nutrients. Therefore a personal nutritional strategy should have a long term horizon. That is why nutrient testing is so valuable. It confirms what past absorption has been for whatever diet the individual has actually consumed for an extended period. Everyone who is concerned about nutritional adequacy should adopt the motto: Test, don’t guess.” Test results will eliminate the uncertainty by disclosing the truth in a clear easily understood form that can be the solid basis for future nutrition goals.
It’s an objectively correct article, but it’s also biased and full of generalizations. It’s very easy to write a blog post which ignores facts that do not support your argument. If I were to make as many generalizations regarding people with omnivorous diets as this acupuncturist has about people with vegan diets, I could write a lengthy and objectively correct article about why people with those unhealthy eating habits are more likely to suffer from afflictions such as Alzheimer’s disease, diabetes, hypertension, etc…
I can’t speak for anyone but myself but after 32 years of being a strict low fat vegetarian I found myself with a B12 and B1 deficiency and osteoporosis. For over 4 years I have reversed all of these problems (plus a lot of digestive problems) by eating a diet of pastured, organic, grass finished and wild caught sources of animal protein, a LOT more vegetables and a lot of unprocessed fats (ghee, coconut and animal fats). I also don’t worry about gaining weight anymore. I found the change hard and a little heartbreaking at first but as long as I am careful to find local, humane sources of meat, I’m now okay with this. I don’t consume mass quantities, just high quality and I know I was meant to be an omnivore.
We get most of our information about nutrition from the latest popular books, which often make their writers successful, and speak to different audiences depending on who the author feels is his target market. The Paleo Code written by Rob Wolf was one of those, sort of a modern Atkins, South Beach. Considering they barely teach nutrition at Harvard medical school it’s sort of a “new” science for most people. If you are eating burgers and donuts, Paleo would be an extension of your knowledge and your capacity to handle your own choices about your health. However, everything is on a continuum, and Paleo was an idea, not an answer, which is something Chris Kresser addressed in his book The Paleo Code, which said you should use the information as a tool for yourself, not as dogma.
It’s moved us further down the line in terms of understanding and self-care. Someone here pointed out that paleo in 2014 is not paleo in 2008.
Two things though – I observe that people love to argue about this stuff on the internet, however I have no doubt that many people who can quote chapter and verse on taurine, choline and other nutritional minutiae are also sitting behind their screens eating donuts. Internet research is not the same as spending alot of time calibrating what you actually eat. Two, there is a continuum – what I see meat eaters talking about here is themselves – optimizing their own enjoyment, and down the continuum – their own health. What I hear vegetarians and vegans talking about is the “whole” which includes animal welfare and the earth. In this gap there seems to be no communication.
Vegans are saying “put on the lens that shows you that our entire lives are deeply entwined with the violence that is done to animals” in the same way that early abolitionists were committed to rejiggering reality until all people saw through the lens that slavery was not just this or that but was incompatible with and central to living a just life on any level. You can imagine the conversations then – when slavery was something everyone had grown up with and took for granted as the way things were, even most slaves. So this is the palette that vegans are working with.
I suggest if you want to eat meat you at least get on Facebook or the internet and take a look at the violence inflicted on cows, pigs and chickens. I don’t think you can necessarily get it all at once. I myself refuse to expose myself to much of it, especially the videos, and the honorable alternative, I decided, was that if I could not watch, I should not eat it. I’m not a vegan, yet. I’m making changes every day, because it involves my clothing and feeding my dog, as well as adjusting those things that have supported me through stressful times, like half and half in coffee. My thought about this is not to replace them with vegan alternatives, like soymilk in coffee, or veggie burgers and fake bacon, but to take a completely new look at what’s out there. Maybe I’ll try espresso instead and of coffee with half and half….much of the world chooses it. I’ll look into Indian food, Thai food, raw food, etc. etc. It’s the beginning of paying close attention, and if I need to take a supplement or two, I’ll figure it out. In these arguments remember that much of the world is starving and and Albert Schweitzer said “Give a thought to the suffering from which you so carefully protect yourself.” (slight misquote from memory).
Firstly I do NOT get my “information about nutrition from the latest popular books”, nor am I sitting here “eating donuts”.
But most importantly I am getting more than a little sick of the sanctimonious preaching and attempts at guilt by those opposed to animal cruelty. Read my comments… I am ALSO against animal cruelty, factory-farming, mono-cultures and all the other ills of our modern food-supply chain. It is disrespectful, damaging to our health and that of our ecosystem… and it is NOT sustainable.
I am not a hypocrite: I have before and would again, kill and prepare my own meat.. face to face. No hiding behind anonymous, boneless, skinless, shrink-wrapped protein patties. It is not something I relish, look forward to, or enjoy
but it is something that can be done with dignity and respect for all life… including humans.
Local, sustainable farms COULD feed the world, but if they can’t, it would be because we have already over-reached ourselves as a species, with our throw-away attitude to finite resources such as fossil fuels.
Hi Erica, if you have not read the following book yet, I think you might find it interesting: Why we Love Dogs, Eat Pigs and Wear Cows by Melanie Joy, PhD Ed.M. (Harvard-educated psychologist, professor of psychology and sociology at the University of Massachusetts Boston)
“We don’t see meat eating as we do vegetarianism – as a choice, based on a set of assumptions about animals, our world and ourselves. Rather, we see it as a given, the “natural” thing to do. We eat animals without thinking about what we are doing and why, because the belief system that underlies this behavior is invisible.”
No “invisible belief system” here, it is a sane, rational, well-researched and well-thought out conviction about what is best for me, best for my family and best for the planet.
Well, I was a vegan for many years before I became deeply thoughtful about the reality of human life on earth. And I’ve seen all of those videos. I actually met my husband interning at Farm Sanctuary, in Ithaca, New York. And I found it very interesting that the same people who were criticizing meat eaters for not killing the animals themselves chose to feed their resident cat with industrially produced animal-based cat food! Yes, they did offer the cat a vegetarian option, (which the cat absolutely refused to eat). But they also decided that they had no choice but to offer the cat meat. They could have carefully killed the resident chickens on the cat’s behalf, and did it in the most humane way possible, but of course they chose not to. Ask almost any vegan cat owner what he/she feeds his/her cats. Passing the buck is not exclusive to omnivorous humans.
By the way: Do you honestly believe that transporting your coffee thousands of miles from its source is a benign process? How many animals would you estimate are killed in the act of providing you with this little pleasure?
I am a vegetarian though I will not go into the details of why I chose to do so. However I take all the supplements that you describe here and if one is concerned about nutrition they would know all of this information. I would like to add something…Even meat eaters today are deficient in B12 and other of the nutrients you suggest. Meat of any kind today is full of the fear of the animals as we slaughter them in disgustingly inhumane ways. Do you really want to eat that. Please our animals are not fed a healthy diet so even if eaten they do not give the nourishment they would have 100 or more years ago…..I think a better approach to telling people what we need to make sure is part of our diet is not to compare vegetarianism to meat eating cannibals but to understand that there is hardly any nutrition in any of the food we eat and that certain supplements must be taken….
Peace for all beings….
Thank you Rudy. I have seen some of those and later will look at more of what you posted. I have also watched some of the documentaries out about vegan eating. And I have read a few of the McDougall books.
I have greatly reduced my animal product consumption, keep my portions small, stopped sugar and grains and greatly increased my vegetables.
I have had low B12 before, so that is on my mind. It is fine now…even a little high by some reports.
For now, I am ok with eating small portions of animal products now and again. There is a food writer by the last name if Pollan (I think that is the spelling) who has done a nice amount of research on this topic and this is what his final conclusion is about the subject. Eat food…mostly plants…or something very similar to this comment.
I believe he recommends good quality animal products about twice a week, small portions, for their potential benefits. And making vegetables your mainstay.
This is where I am leaning. I suppose it is a middle ground, but I notice I feel good eating this way and my tests are improving.
But, I do read a lot on the subject; including vegetarian/vegan literature. I will continue to do this, personally monitor how I feel, and continue to have myself checked out thoroughly by doctors including traditional docs and functional physicians.
You should think twice before posting misinformation:
Where health is concerned, a plant-exclusive diet is viable for practically everyone.
*Note* The term ‘vegetarian,’ as used by some of these organizations, does not distinct itself from a 100% plant-exclusive diet, lacto-ovo vegetarian, pescatarian, etc. It encompasses all plant-based diets.
1) The Mayo Clinic: the first and largest integrated not-for-profit medical group practice in the world, employing more than 3,800 physicians and scientists and 50,900 allied health staff. It spends $500 million dollars on research a year.
“A well-planned vegetarian diet can meet the needs of people of all ages, including children, teenagers, and pregnant or breast-feeding women. The key is to be aware of your nutritional needs so that you plan a diet that meets them.”
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vegetarian-diet/HQ01596
2) The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics: the world’s largest organization of food and nutrition professionals. The Academy is committed to improving the nation’s health and advancing the profession of dietetics through research, education and advocacy.
“… [vegetarian diets] are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases…are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.”
http://www.eatright.org/about/content.aspx?id=8357
3) Dietitians of Canada (DC): is the national professional association for dietitians, representing almost 6000 members at the local, provincial and national levels. DC is one of the largest organizations of dietetic professionals in the world.
“A vegan eating pattern has many potential health benefits. They include lower rates of obesity, heart disease, high blood pressure, type 2 diabetes and certain types of cancer. Other benefits include lower blood cholesterol levels and a lower risk for gallstones and intestinal problems.”
http://www.dietitians.ca/Nutrition-Resources-A-Z/Factsheets/Vegetarian/Eating-Guidelines-for-Vegans.aspx
4) The British National Health Service (NHS): is the largest and the oldest single-payer healthcare system in the world. It provides the majority of healthcare in England.
“With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs.”
http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Vegetarianhealth/Pages/Vegandiets.aspx
5) The British Nutrition Foundation (BNF): team of nutrition scientists that conducts academic reviews of published research on issues of diet and public health. Aims to to advance the education of the public, and those involved in the training and education of others, in nutrition; and to advance the study of and research into nutrition for the public benefit, and to disseminate and publish the useful results of such research.
“A well-planned, balanced vegetarian or vegan diet can be nutritionally adequate…”
“Studies of UK vegetarian and vegan children have revealed that their growth and development are within the normal range.”
http://www.nutrition.org.uk/publications/briefingpapers/vegetarian-nutrition
6) The Dietitians Association of Australia (DAA): is the peak body of 5,100 dietetic and nutrition professionals providing strategic leadership in food and nutrition through empowerment, advocacy, education, accreditation and communication.
“…with good planning it is still possible to obtain all the nutrients required for good health on a vegan diet.”
http://daa.asn.au/for-the-public/smart-eating-for-you/nutrition-a-z/vegan-diets/
7) The Center for Nutrition Policy and Promotion (CNPP): a branch of the USDA that aims to improve the nutrition and well-being of Americans by focusing on advancing and promoting dietary guidance for all Americans, and conducting applied research and analysis in nutrition and consumer economics.
“Vegetarian diets can meet all the recommendations for nutrients.”
http://www.choosemyplate.gov/healthy-eating-tips/tips-for-vegetarian.html
8) The National Institutes of Health (NIH): comprised of 27 separate institutes and centers, and with an annual spending of around $26 billion, NIH is the is the primary agency of the United States government responsible for biomedical and health-related research.
“There is no single type of vegetarian diet…People who follow vegetarian diets can get all the nutrients they need.”
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/vegetariandiet.html
9) American Heart Association (AHA): with 22.5 million volunteers and 2,700 employees, AHA is the nation’s oldest, largest voluntary organization devoted to fighting cardiovascular diseases and stroke.
“Many studies have shown that vegetarians seem to have a lower risk of obesity, coronary heart disease (which causes heart attack), high blood pressure, diabetes mellitus and some forms of cancer.”
http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/GettingHealthy/NutritionCenter/Vegetarian-Diets_UCM_306032_Article.jsp
10) Heart and Stroke Foundation (HSF): having invested over $1.35 billion in heart and stroke research, HSF is one of Canada’s largest and most effective health charities.
“Vegetarian diets can provide all the nutrients you need at any age, as well as some additional health benefits. Vegetarian diets often have lower levels of total fat, saturated fat and cholesterol than many meat-based diets, and higher intakes of fibre, magnesium, potassium, folate and antioxidants such as vitamins C and E. Vegetarian diets may lead to lower blood pressure, improved cholesterol levels, healthier weight and less incidence of Type 2 diabetes, all of which can reduce the risk of heart disease and stroke.”
http://www.heartandstroke.com/site/c.ikIQLcMWJtE/b.3484249/k.2F6C/Healthy_living__Vegetarian_diets.htm
11) American Cancer Society (ACS): with over 3,400 local offices, and raising $934 million in 2012, this 100 year old society works to save lives and create a world with less cancer.
“Some studies have linked vegetarian diets to lower risk for heart disease, diabetes, high blood pressure, obesity, and certain types of cancer, such as colon cancer. A strictly vegetarian diet must be properly planned to be sure it provides all the required nutrients.”
http://www.cancer.org/treatment/treatmentsandsideeffects/complementaryandalternativemedicine/dietandnutrition/vegetarianism
12) Harvard School of Public Health: is one of the most selective and prestigious public health schools in the world with half of the students already holding a medical doctorate.
“With a little planning, a balanced and varied vegetarian diet can meet the nutrient needs of nearly everyone.”
http://www.dining.harvard.edu/vegvgn
13) American Diabetes Association (ADA): with 90 local offices across the US, the ADA utilizes 73% of its $34.6 million in fund raising (2012) to support research and projects concerning diabetes.
“A vegetarian diet is a healthy option, even if you have diabetes. Research supports that following this type of diet can help prevent and manage diabetes. In fact, research on vegan diets has found that carbohydrate and calorie restrictions were not necessary and still promoted weight loss and lowered participants’ A1C.”
http://www.diabetes.org/food-and-fitness/food/planning-meals/meal-planning-for-vegetarians/
14) The Perelman School of Medicine (Penn Med): a medical school ranked second for research in 2012.
“A well-planned vegetarian diet can give you good nutrition. A vegetarian diet often helps you have better health. Eating a vegetarian diet can help you: [r]educe your chance of obesity; [r]educe your risk of heart disease; [l]ower your blood pressure; [l]ower your risk of type 2 diabetes.”
http://www.pennmedicine.org/encyclopedia/em_DisplayArticle.aspx?gcid=002465&ptid=1
15) Cleveland Clinic: is regarded as one of the top hospital in the United States. With around 1,700 staff physicians representing 120 medical specialties, this hospital helps patients not only from all 50 states, but from more than 100 other nations.
“There really are no disadvantages to a herbivorous diet! A plant-based diet has many health benefits, including lowering the risk for heart disease, hypertension, Type 2 diabetes, and cancer. It can also help lower cholesterol and blood pressure levels, plus maintain weight and bone health.”
http://my.clevelandclinic.org/heart/prevention/nutrition/food-choices/understanding-vegetarianism.aspx
16) New York Presbyterian Hospital: is an esteemed university hospital system affiliated with two Ivy League medical schools. It is the largest not-for-profit hospital in the US.
“People who follow a vegetarian diet are relatively healthier than those who don’t. Vegetarians tend to have a lower incidence of obesity and fewer chronic health problems, including some cancers, heart disease, high blood pressure, and diabetes.”
http://nyp.org/wellness/showDocument.php?contentTypeId=1&contentId=1876&heading=Vegetarian+Diets%3A+The+Myths+vs.+Facts
17) University of Pittsburgh Medical Center (UPMC): with 4,200 licensed beds and 400 outpatient sites, UPMC is one of the largest medical centers in the world.
“A well-planned vegetarian diet can give you good nutrition. A vegetarian diet often helps you have better health.”
http://www.upmc.com/healthlibrary/Pages/ADAM.aspxGenContentId=002465&ProjectId=1&ProductId=1
18) The Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center (UCLA): having research centers covering nearly all major specialties of medicine, UCLA is considered on of the top three hospitals in the US. This hospital has been ranked in the top twenty in 15 of the 16 medical specialties ranked in the US News ranking.
“Some of the health benefits of a vegetarian diet may include: [d]ecreased blood cholesterol levels;
and blood pressure; [l]ower incidence of heart disease, some forms of cancer, and digestive disorders like constipation and diverticula disease; [l]ower incidence of obesity and some forms of diabetes.”
http://www.dining.ucla.edu/housing_site/dining/SNAC_pdf/Vegetarianism.pdf
19) Kaiser Permanente: the largest managed care organization in the United States, published an article supporting the adoption of a plant-based diet earlier this spring.
“Healthy eating may be best achieved with a plant-based diet, which we define as a regimen that encourages whole, plant-based foods and discourages meats, dairy products, and eggs as well as all refined and processed foods. Research shows that plant-based diets are cost-effective, low-risk interventions that may lower body mass index, blood pressure, HbA1C, and cholesterol levels. They may also reduce the number of medications needed to treat chronic diseases and lower ischemic heart disease mortality rates. Physicians should consider recommending a plant-based diet to all their patients, especially those with high blood pressure, diabetes, cardiovascular disease, or obesity.”
http://www.thepermanentejournal.org/issues/2013/spring/5117-nutrition.html
*** A follow up written by Dr. John McDougall and his son, Dr. Craig McDougall concerning Kaiser Permanente’s warning about potential nutrient deficiencies:
“In our experience of treating more than 5000 patients with a low-fat, whole foods, plant-based (vegan) diet, with follow-up lasting as long as 28 years, we have not seen any deficiencies of protein, iron, calcium, or essential fatty acids.”
http://www.thepermanentejournal.org/…/fall/5552-diet.html
—————————–
Special thanks to Anders Branderuds:
http://bloganders.blogspot.no/2013/08/humans-can-live-and-thrive-on-healthy.html
Organization summaries provided by Wikipedia and said group’s website
http://www.wikipedia.org/
“*Note* The term ‘vegetarian,’ as used by some of these organizations, does not distinct itself from a 100% plant-exclusive diet, lacto-ovo vegetarian, pescatarian, etc. It encompasses all plant-based diets.”
Are you implying that when the research shows a lacto-ovo vegetarian or pescatarian diet can be healthful (to which I’d agree.. it can be, if carefully thought through) they might as well be saying the same for a vegan or 100% plant-exclusive diet?
If that is your contention, then I strongly disagree.
FrankG,
I encourage you to examine the sources. You will understand the highlight in question better. Before buttressing the viability of a plant-exclusive, or plant-based, diet, the organizations define exactly of what a “vegetarian” diet consists.
As for your deduction, I agree. That would not be logical to expand a plant-exclusive diet beyond plants. To your assertion that a diet consisting of animal products can be healthful, I also agree. It, an omnivorous diet, however, is not moral. That is where the debate concerning veganism rests. These smoke-screens of articles only delay the inevitable.
Back to nutrition. Here is a study that gauges healthfulness between dietary ranges of “vegetarianism:”
http://www.chicagotribune.com/health/sns-201401210000–tms–premhnstr–k-k20140122-20140122,0,3834968.story
A vegan diet certainly falls into the set known as “vegetarian” but a vegetarian diet does not necessarily mean vegan… this is misleading at best and disingenuous at worst
Speaking of which.. the PCRM… a vegan-promoting organization that pretends not to be.. why the need for deception? Why hide if they are confident in the truth? I don’t trust this kind of behaviour.
FrankG,
It seems like you ran out of information as you have fallen back to slander and ad hominem.
You could not logically deduce that some of the most prestigious medical facilities and organizations in the world, with a combined research budget of 30 billion+ mind you, would make the mistake of devoting a page to vegetarianism, mention “veganism” and not decipher between them when addressing their support. Secondly, you did not address the information provided by PCRM you instead tried to defame the non-profit.
Sorry friend, but I do not debate with people who turn to such tactics. It is a waste of energy.
“Friend”??? I hardly think so… I don”t even know you, let alone have much trust or respect for you, based on just these few interchanges.
“Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine”… what a moniker.. sounds like an upstanding group of MDs right?!? But they are a vegan front organisation who try to obscure that fact… why?
Why not “Vegan Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine”???
Is that important to know?
Do you think they provide unbiased advice and research on diet related health issues?
One may as well ask the Third Reich for unbiased advice on race-relations!
For starters, that quote from the Mayo Clinic article is disingenuous to say the least. If you bother to read the details you’ll find that it admits:
“…because conversion of plant-based omega-3 to the types used by humans is inefficient, you may want to consider fortified products or supplements, or both.”
And,
“Vitamin B-12 deficiency may go undetected in people who eat a vegan diet. This is because the vegan diet is rich in a vitamin called folate, which may mask deficiency in vitamin B-12 until severe problems occur. For this reason, it’s important for vegans to consider vitamin supplements, vitamin-enriched cereals and fortified soy products.”
As they say, the devil is in the details.
So…. supplement? No one has to die.
The animals that people eat most certainly supplement. As in 90% of the B12 production load, supplement.
http://baltimorepostexaminer.com/carnivores-need-vitamin-b12-supplements/2013/10/30
Food for thought:
“There is no evidence of adverse effects on health or cognitive function with lower DHA intake in vegetarians.”
http://www.plefa.com/article/S0952-3278%2809%2900086-6/abstract
Or… you can simply eat a whole foods, plant-exclusive diet and add two tablespoons of flaxseed just to be safe.
Rudy,
The part about vegan diets being appropriate for those in lactation, infancy and childhood is the point where the organizations lose all credibility.
Rudy, That certainly is one impressive list! I’m wondering just how this fits with vegan … non-dairy; non-fish; likely non-sea-creatures like krill; lobsters; oysters, etc …. vs vegetarianism, fits as wholesome? Then there is the difficulty posed because of human breast milk/colostrum. Do you think this non-vegan food ethically can be fed to human newborns? Is a properly designed vegan diet ever a good choice for human children? {I wonder if any of these has considered such a stance for their own offspring} … or has anyone refuted the extra needs of a cold climate dwellers for things like vitamin D3, K2, omega-3 oil, and … . You will find people (and organizations) based-in/living-in California or Hawaii making silly pronouncements about the merits of veganism but I absolutely defy any plant to live long enough to be food-source for humans in cold climates. We sentient-beings starve/go-hungry while plants die.
John M.
I appreciate your curiosity. As I was telling FrankG, the institutions / organizations put a plant-exclusive diet underneath the heading of ‘vegetarian diet.’ For efficiency purpose, I suppose, they wanted to encapsulate the full spectrum of plant-based with a single word.
As many of the sources that I provide state, a plant-exclusive diet is viable for all stages of life. With this in mind, it becomes transparent that the consumption of animal products in all cases save self-defense / preservation is immoral.
Vitamins D3 and K2 can be found in plant options (interestingly enough, the most abundant source of K2 is natto, a fermented soy dish).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10874601
http://tinyurl.com/lmoepx2
http://tinyurl.com/lb6qz9h
Omega-3 is even easier: two tables spoons of ground flaxseed. I did the calculations one day, and I believe it costs 17 cents a day to reach the recommended dose without considering the other vasts amount of omega 3 that one derives from other whole plant foods.
One may want to focus on certain nutrients during pregnancy and lactation, however, these nutrients can easily be derived from plant sources. The Physician Committee of Responsible Medicine (PCRM) has put out the following information:
http://pcrm.org/health/diets/ffl/newsletter/q-is-it-safe-to-be-on-a-vegan-diet-while-pregnant
http://www.pcrm.org/pdfs/health/Nutrition_for_Kids.pdf
Concerning morality and cold weather individuals without access to a variety of vegetation year round- are we talking about Siberia? That is an interesting topic of debate for sure! However, it does not apply to a vast majority of the individuals who see the information that I share. To justify one’s eating habits on another one’s circumstance is intellectually dishonest.
My relatively recent ancestors were in Southern Europe during the last ice-ages, is it “intellectually dishonest” to deny that I may have inherited some of my genetic makeup from them?
Flax? I prefer to get a good source of DHA and EPA from my own wild-caught salmon.
Funny, Chris even talked about flax as a source of Omega 3’s:
http://chriskresser.com/why-fish-stomps-flax-as-a-source-of-omega-3
Choose the flax. It is a viable option, easier on the wallet, and no one has to die. Just be sure to grind it up into a powder as it is easier to absorb in that form.
I pretty much agree with the earlier poster, Donna. I think that we are all individuals and likely need to figure out what is best for our bodies. Maybe through observation and testing. Years ago in the middle of a bad autoimmune flare, I read Fit for Life and the author promoted grain free and meat free living. I agreed with the grain free part, but had trouble with the meat free part. He also said it took approximately 24 hours to digest meat, this DID concern me. So, I started eating meat every other day. I stopped grain and sugar and greatly increased veggies. After this change in my diet, I was so healthy, my doctor couldn’t believe it. For some reason, I fell off the wagon and I’m paying for it dearly today. I noticed, generally speaking, we seem to be all or nothing thinkers. I know for me, it seems that eating lots of meat products might not be a good idea, but I do think they are a good part of a healthy diet. And I’ve cut way back on dairy, only using organic butter for example, on top of my veggies. I think, most of us realize that Americans in particular don’t seem to eat enough vegetables….which should be a very important part of a healthy diet. So very similar to Donna, for me it is about watching the needs of my body, and finding good quality foods, a little good quality animal products for their special benefits, lots of vegetables, some fruits, a tiny amount of organic dairy, no sugar, no grains, no junk food, maybe a very Occasional piece of dark chocolate….with the help of some good doctors, observation, testing, I’m creating a diet that I hope will optimize my health. It’s not all or nothing or doing exactly what someone else is doing.
First, e leading source on why many different kinds of vegan diets are not just nutritionally adequate but optimal: Vegan Diets: Sorting Through the Nutritional Myths at http://freefromharm.org/vegan-diets-sorting-nutritional-myths/
Second, this article is based on a lot of old and outdated nutrition information. See Catching Up With Science: Burying the “Humans Need Meat” Argument at http://freefromharm.org/health-nutrition/catching-up-with-science-burying-the-humans-need-meat-argument/#sthash.NfHOMTLg.dpuf
Third, many of the nutrients the author claims are lacking in a vegan diet are actually being artificially supplemented to the feed of animals raised commercially for food, including B12, and yet we are told that relying on supplement and fortified foods is not a “natural” way to eat. If you really want to learn how unnatural and cruel animal exploitation is today, please do visit my organization’s website. In fact, forget about the worst case scenario for animals on large, industrialized farms and just take a closer look at the so-called “humane” and “sustainable” farming practices today at http://freefromharm.org/animal-products-and-ethics/a-comprehensive-analysis-of-the-humane-farming-myth/. Would this be acceptable to do to your neighbor’s dog? Of course not. So how can one have any integrity by paying someone else to abuse and violently kill animals at a fraction of their natural lifespan we have no biological need to eat?
I think I will just continue my own “personal best” diet/lifestyle habits: Eating mainly veggies, fruits, nuts, and the occasional dairy/eggs/meat/fish (all as local as humanly possible).. as little processed crap as possible, NO fast food, lots and lots of water and green tea, a few good organic vitamin supplements…. exercise daily, get sunshine and fresh air… indulge once in awhile in a nice wine or beer, a decadent dessert or piece of yummy dark chocolate… and lots of laughter and love. It works for me
I think that’s amazing Donna! I’m a vegetarian myself, but I think that’s a much better lifestyle than most have – and the important thing is you lead one that makes you happy!
“It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.”
As a dietitian, that statement really upsets me.
Especially the part where they say a vegetarian diet is appropriate for pregnancy, infancy and childhood. While some people can be healthy on a vegetarian diet, I know of many people who have gotten quite ill on a vegetarian diet. To impose a plant-based diet on children (without supplemental nutrient dense animal foods) is really unfortunate, especially when they’re at a critical period for growth and development. Not everyone can get the nutrients they need from plants, as we all have genetic variations that affect our ability to absorb and metabolize nutrients.
I was raised vegan from birth and I consider myself to be very fortunate, quite the contrary to what you believe. My children will also be raised vegan and will receive every nutrient their body needs, as I do, and others I know who experience optimal health on a whole food plant based diet.
Of course it bothers you Laura. That is because you are completely indoctrinated by the meat, dairy, and egg industry propaganda. After all, they helped write the books for your education(indoctrination).
If you truly understood nutrition, you would never generalize a diet of infinite possibilities as vegetarian or vegan. You can be vegan eating Oreos and potato chips. As a professional, I don’t tell people to go vegetarian or vegan. I tell them to eat a plant-based, whole-foods, mostly raw diet, because it provides the best protection against the most number of diseases. This is what Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn promotes, and he has a 99% success rate of curing has patients of heart disease. But he must somehow be wrong, because your text books say otherwise, eh?
In addition, you force a child to eat meat. You don’t force them to eat plant foods. Put a small child in a crib with an apple and a bunny. If the child eats the bunny and plays with the apple, I’ll buy you a new car. Meat is unnatural to us. That is why we have to cook it or otherwise specially prepare it to prevent getting sick. Please show many omnivore in nature who cooks their meat before it is eaten.
Oh dear. Quite a bizarre experiment you’ve proposed there. I don’t know a single omnivore who would pick up a live animal and try to bite into it. Can’t imagine rabbit fur feels too good going down your throat!
And I’d imagine that if you put a soft piece of slow-cooked, fatty lamb and a raw kale leaf in that same crib, that the child would most likely put the meat in its mouth. (But now we’re both just making suppositions.)
Humans are frugivores. Fruit is the preferred food. That is why I said an apple and not kale. Don’t they teach comparative anatomy to dietitians?
And the mere fact that you said “cooked” shows how disconnected you are from a natural diet. Name me one other omnivore or carnivore that has to cook its food, or specially prepare it before consumption.
And you are right, a mouth full of fur is not appetizing. Please find me another omnivore or carnivore that wouldn’t eat a rabbit because it was covered in fur.
So now humans are frugivores? This should be good.. references???
In the meantime you might care to check out what out nearest genetic cousins the chimpanzees actually eat.. it ain’t just bananas Toto!
As for raw meat and comparing humans other omnivores… you surely must be aware of the hypothesis that we developed our large brains (which sadly some seem intent on wasting away) by virtue of reducing digestive effort by cooking our food
Or to put it in language which you may understand, “find me another omnivore or carnivore” where the brain uses over 20% of its resting energy?
I’m sorry but this is getting too ridiculous. First of all, humans are not “frugivores”, we have an omnivorous digestive tract. Here is a good comparative anatomy chart between the three types of digestive systems: http://highsteaks.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/carnivore-herbivore-omnnivore-comparison.jpg
Second, there’s evidence that the reason humans are as advanced as we are is because we cook our food. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/29/cooked-food-diet-primates-brains_n_2033975.html
I want to ensure that anyone reading these comments who is on the fence about a vegan diet will have plenty of information from both viewpoints to inform their decisions.
“Humans are frugivores”.
And that’s why Steve Jobs is dead. Smart guy, but he should have starved his cancer instead of feeding it.
Put a grasshopper in there instead of the bunny, I bet you the kid will eat the bug instead of the apple. Nummy.
The question about optimal diet is an important one because diet is an easy way to influence health. While the American Dietetic Association states that carefully designed Vegetarian Diets can meet all nutritional needs and there are many examples of successful vegetarian and vegan athletes, there is a broader question here that this article mentions: variable absorbency by different individuals.
The solution to this problem is so simple: Everyone should just get tested periodically to confirm they are absorbing optimal levels of all nutrients of interest. Testing is widely available at reasonable cost and entirely takes the guesswork out of determining proper nutrition.
A primary issue about animal products is not nutrition but avoiding a long list of bad things: saturated fat, cholesterol, protein, pollutants, antibiotics and hormones.
I have myself tested annually to verify optimal nutrition absorption from my vegan diet. I supplement and tweak my vegan diet modestly. Further, it is easy to test for toxin build up that is a major concern from eating inorganics and animal products and make diet adjusts for that too.
Everyone should stop guessing about nutrition by being tested and guided accordingly.
I second this. I occasionally have a metabolic analysis which lets me know how my carb, fat, protein metabolisms are doing as well as things like electrolyte levels, nervous system, vit c, alkaline/ acid balance etc and tweak my vegan diet accordingly.
I’m very health conscious. I shop at farmers markets, co-ops, health food stores, and I grow my own. I am omnivorous in my eating habits, so I buy all my free range, grass fed meats, eggs, and raw dairy from local farmers directly. Big corporations make no money from me nor my family.
That being said, I live a healthy and happy lifestyle with a moderate injury related paralysis challenge that is manageable.
Quality of life is more important to me than quantity, so if the vegetarians outlive me, I couldn’t care less. I wouldn’t trade my quality of life for theirs, based on my observations, and despite my physical challenges. I think most health conscious omnivores have vegetarian friends, and I am no exception.
My question is; is it me, my selection of vegetarian friends, or a common symptom of a vegetarian diet, that they are so often very crabby. They also struggle with stamina and seem to lack motivation. Healthy or not, I do not want this kind of life. Especially a long lived one.
I completely agree with everything in this article- I mean after all, isn’t it obvious that it’s not possible to be healthy, get all essential nutrients, and have enough energy on a vegan diet? Duh… https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.651446311583081.1073741833.452441044816943&type=3
For the reasons cited above in the opening paragraph, I too began to follow a vegan diet but in my research soon got scared off. A considerable number of the paleo community have been vegan and then due to resulting ill-health, began eating meat etc. Some of them are still recovering slowly from the ill-effects of the stated possible deficiencies.
I suspect it’s all about genotypes whether some people thrive on vegan diets and others become very poorly. Also there may be come compensatory mechanisms for some individuals that other individuals can’t achieve e.g. conversion of flaxseed oil to EPA and DHA which would account for some people doing well on a vegan diet and others not so much.
23andme can generate genomic data which third party sites such as mthfrsupport.com and genetic genie can analyse to help explain or guide people in their dietary choices. The heartfixer.com website can help explain things as well. Factors such as haemochromatosis have to be taken into account when making choices. At least we all agree that sugar’s not a good idea!
Yes I am aware that many paleos tried plant based diets. I’ve read all the “been there, done that, it doesn’t work” stories. I have found that in almost every single case it’s obvious they were approaching it wrong, and most of the time it’s because they did things like turn to soy and grains as staples to replace the flesh they were so used to eating. I was raised on a plant- based diet since birth and so I have never felt the need to “replace” anything. When I look at food I see the nutritional value- I’m not trying to replace the same feeling in my belly or on my tongue that something else used to give me. In this sense I cannot relate to meat- eaters trying to ‘go veg’, but I do have some perspective that helps me to understand why so many fail.
Sure let’s hold up muscle-bound freaks as paragons of health and wellness! Good grief!
But seriously I wonder how little digging it would take to find our which of these are “true” vegans like Bill Clinton… who indulges in occasional salmon, eggs etc. .so as to avoid nutrient deficiencies?
Or how many of these have been raised as vegans since conception? A fate I assume many of you are forcing on your innocent children and pets. Are you really so cock-sure that is the best thing for their future health and well-being?
I was raised vegan since birth, and I’m 30 years old. I’m alive and well- and consider myself incredibly fortunate that my parents used their common sense. My grandfather was vegan for the last 25 years of his life and thrived. In the end it was a car accident that killed him- not long after he gave up his pension because he wanted to grow his business at 80 years of age (so much energy). You can argue till the cows come home but as you can see it’s a waste of time.
Oh I can tell that trying to have reasoned discussion with you is a waste of my breath but despite what you claim here, just below you contradict yourself…
“I occasionally have a metabolic analysis which lets me know how my carb, fat, protein metabolisms are doing as well as things like electrolyte levels, nervous system, vit c, alkaline/ acid balance etc and tweak my vegan diet accordingly.”
Why would you need to tweak perfection? And what potential harm could this do to a growing child? Missing an essential nutrient at a crucial moment in their development? What if you identified this shortfall in your diet just as you were conceiving a child? And sure I recognise that could also happen with an omnivorous diet… it’s just that it is far less likely; as a steak (for one example) has such a huge list of nutrients, as compared to a cabbage.
Oh dear I can see you feel a bit defeated and are now trying to scrape the bottom of the barrel to find come- backs! I will waste no more time with you. Please go away- don’t you have some magnesium supplements to take? Goodbye
Yes, I’m sure you like that wouldn’t you.. if people like me would just go away.
So awkward when you are unable to respond to issues raised against your fantasy world.
Me go away? Not gonna happen…
Wow. You’re still commenting this far down the page and getting obviously upset. You need to calm down. Maybe debating diets with strangers on the internet is not healthy for you?
Animal products have at most around 27 nutrients. All plant-products have over 10,000 nutrients. Plants are packed fill of phyto-chemicals of which animals products have none.
1/3rd of US Citizens will die of heart disease. Another 1/3 will die from cancer. Add on the number of people who will die from auto-immune disorders and you are looking at a most of the population. All of these diseases list animal products as a major cause. A whole-food, plant-based diet is not attributed to one single disease, and is actually proven to risk factors of all the previously mentioned conditions.
In other words, enjoy your heart attack. While you are having it, think of the thousands of animals you killed, the poor you starved, and the environment you destroyed to give you the heart attack.
Oh dear.. somebody really does read and apparently believe all that vegan propaganda.
It is ironic that when people are completely brainwashed by advertising and cultural paradigms that they actually view the truth, based on scientific evidence, to be propaganda.
I could and do say the exact same thing about your own narrow-minded view of the world. You are brainwashed.
Wow, Cappy. I want you to think of the “the thousands of animals you killed, the poor you starved, and the environment you destroyed” just by existing. If you live in America and indulge in our consumerist culture in any way, you are contributing to those issues as much as any meat eater. It is delusional to think otherwise. Or are you a hermit who lives in a hut without electricity and only eats food you grew yourself? Well, you are on the internet so I doubt it.
I cannot believe the venom that comes out of the mouths of vegans. I thought veganism was to embrace compassion and empathy for all living creatures. For the love of God listen to yourself. Are you really moving toward a better world? Shame.
So Cappy, you are saying that if you eat vegan you won’t die?!?!! Cause that’s what it sound like.
I just recently bought your book! I also have recently been through a lot health wise and am making changes. I’ve had pelvic pain and have been dx’d with an autoimmune disease. My doctors wanted me off grains and that seems to be helping me with my many uncomfortable symptoms, including the pelvic pain. But I had some concern about animal products too, so I’m eating them in smaller portions and looking for good quality. I don’t see where being a vegetarian and especially a vegan is ideal. I’ve had low B12 in the past and that is miserable. So, now I don’t eat grains or sugar and eat moderate amounts of meat and fruits and lots of vegetables and small portions of organic dairy. For example, sometimes I want a little butter on my veggies…and I see nothing wrong with that. Honestly, I’m very concerned about my health and know in my heart that a healthy diet is vital. Looking forward to reading your book…just got it!!!!
While the paleo rationales make sense to me, and while I seem to need to eat meat to control depression, I have to wonder why the studies show no difference between health conscious meat eaters and non meat eaters if vegetarianism is as deficient as you claim. I mean, if this were all true, shouldn’t they show worse health?
Also, I was reading P. Jaminet’s discussion about omega 3 toxicity levels and ease of rancidity, and it occurs to me that maybe we don’t want a “good” source of it. Maybe a poorly converted plant source is just what we need! (if omega 6’s are in check, of course)
Good point made. My grandfather was vegan for the last 25 years of his life (he became vegan after he was diagnosed with liver cancer and was given 4 months to live). He was so energetic, fit and healthy, he even gave up his pension because he was too restless. He worked 14 hour days, 7 days a week- at age 80. Everyone who didn’t know his diet wanted to know his secret, and we all joked that he would break a record for the longest living human. Unfortunately before his 81st birthday he was on his early morning walk just before the sun rose and was hit by a car and killed. I wish he was alive for many reasons, but one would be to show him this article. I bet it would have made him chuckle.
Anette my grandfather ate meat and vegetables and grew up in another country, went through war and famine and wow, lived to be about 84 and died peacefully in his bed. My brother-in-laws mom grew up in a polluted mining town, smoked all her life, ate meat and veg, got lung cancer, beat that and died in her 90s. What is your point?
Living a long life doesn’t necessarily mean it was a healthy thriving life. Flawed observation fallacy.
You mean to apply this pearl of wisdom to BOTH Mina’s AND Annette’s anecdote,,. of course???
Such a negative person.. seeing only fallacies around her…
Actually, a poorly converted plant source might reduce your ability to use the biologically active form of omega-3 fats. I would say the ideal source of omega-3 is fresh, lightly cooked or raw fatty fish or pastured egg yolks that have not been exposed to oxidative damage and yet have high amounts of omega-3 fats, DHA in particular.
I suggest you read this excellent article for more information:
http://www.westonaprice.org/know-your-fats/precious-yet-perilous
Thanks for the link but no thanks- I’m a few steps ahead of you and I’ve been through these conversations before.
Well, as modern humans we can choose something optimal over evolutionary, but I did wonder what source of cold water fish we would have been eating in Africa, what fish we ate before nets were invented, and what eggs we ate most of the time as in the wild they are highly seasonal … I was just suggesting that maybe there is a reason our requirements are so low. The problem seems to come from gorging on the modern seed oils, I guess
I recently suffered pelvic pain and was told to stop consuming grains. In fact, four of my doctors told me to stop consuming grains. I told one of my docs that the China Study and various documentaries I have seen had me concerned about eating meat. She had a good suggestion; to reduce my meat consumption and to eat the best quality meats I can find. My new diet is not easy…but in a short while, I feel Much better. I’m not eating grains, eating less meat, but good quality meat, very very little dairy (only organic and only lactose free), not eating sugar at all, lots of good water, no sodas at all, a max of one Truvia packet a day…a LOT of veggies a day, fruit daily, etc. For me, grains seem to be the big culprit and I also think we might eat too many animal products. I’ve had to listen to my doctors and listen to what my body was telling me and adjust accordingly. I pray I can keep this up. I know in my heart a good, healthy diet is imperative! Best wishes to all who seek to find good health.
I also beat pelvic pain with diet and reducing grains and sugars was primary in that success. Listening to your body is important — it will tell you when things are out-of-whack and nutritional imbalances leading to inflammation and pain are easy to overcome if you catch them early enough. If you can tolerate it, try eating some full-fat yogurt and other fermented foods as they will help heal your gut and ease discomfort that leads to muscle tension in your pelvis.
Oh, and look into gentle stretches that activate the psoas muscle — the tension of which is a top cause of pelvic pain.
This is a very one-sided argument. I have been vegan and omnivorous. I am much healthier as a vegan and my recent medical record (overcoming one autoimmune disease, several intolerances and getting off all prescription medicine) and my high endurance and energy are a testament to the diet. That said, it’s a choice, and I think people should choose a diet that makes them feel the best, not a diet that someone dictates to you. Life is short–enjoy the journey!
The experience of one person, though surely valuable to the person in question, is not a valid scientific defense of veganism and does not detract from the central argument of this article, which is that nutrient deficiencies are common in vegetarian and vegan diets.
I do agree that people should choose the diet that makes them feel best, but the problem is that can be misleading. If someone is eating a “standard american” omnivorous diet with a lot of processed and refined food, and then they switch to a vegan diet, they will surely feel better. They went from eating crap to eating real food. But that does not mean a vegan diet is optimal, nor does it mean they won’t develop nutrient deficiencies over time with such an approach.
“The experience of one person, though surely valuable to the person in question, is not a valid scientific defense of veganism and does not detract from the central argument of this article, which is that nutrient deficiencies are common in vegetarian and vegan diets.”
This is complete hyperbole. People who consume plant-based diets might have lower levels of some nutrients, and higher levels of other nutrients. A lower level of a nutrient does NOT make someone deficient. Deficiency means an insufficient amount, or a lack of, which means that symptoms must be present for it to be considered a deficiency. If no symptoms, then there is an adequate amount.
The baseline for nutrient levels is obtained from a sample of the population. In Western cultures, especially the US, the norm of the population is an overweight person who eats a lot of animal products and processed foods, doesn’t work out, and has high cholesterol & blood pressure. Your norm is unhealthy, so comparing someone who eats a plant-based diet on blood levels alone is ludicrous.
Let’s look at health.
People who eat a plant-based diet are the only group, on average, to have a healthy BMI. http://www.nature.com/ijo/journal/v27/n6/full/0802300a.html
Lower risk of heart disease.
http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_stories/2013/130130.html
Lower risk of cancer.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3048091/
Lower risk of diabetes.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/3/610S.full
The list goes on and on, and yet not a single “deficiency” you mentioned is cited as a cause for any remotely common disease, let alone symptoms. Yet, eating animal products is cited as a contributor in every single major disease. How brainwashed do you have to be to find a 1 in 3 chance of dying from a heart attack to be less of a threat than an extremely rare vitamin deficiency.
I suggest people research this info on their own and not simply listen to the propaganda repeated by the meat, dairy, and egg industry that have become irrational paradigms.
Why is her life experience invalid? Because it contradicts what you want to believe?
He didn’t say that. He said that n=1 doesn’t negate entire scientific arguments
I find this extremely ONE sided as well. I’ve also done both ( vegan/whole30) as well as a raw diet for a very short while. I recently started the whole30 and have extended it indefinately because of the results. My diet does include meat, it’s no more than a fifth of what is on my plate and is less meat than what I eat prior to the whole 30. Everything else is veggies with limited fruit. I’ve cut out all processed/refined/dairy/grains/legumes/potato/soy … anything that is not a meat, veggie, fruit or nut with the exception of unrefined coconut oil. I have had great results with this and credit it to the increased amount of veggies I eat. I try to buy the best quality food I can as well as support local farmers by joining a CSA.
I believe whether you go whole 30/paleo or vegan/vegatarian, the key is to eat correctly, eliminate the processed crap, add lots of fresh fruits and veggies which are awesome for you ( I can’t believe I hear people making statements against veggies ) and for me, eliminating dairy, grains & sugar was the best thing i’ve ever done.
This was at first appearances a well researched and referenced article. However, the first (and only) two references I clicked through to in no way supported the assertions being made in the article:
1. the ‘myth’ that seaweed, brewer’s yeast and fermented soy provide real B12. The article referenced just listed the test results for a single specific supplement (spirulina). It made no claims about any naturally occurring sources of B12.
2. the study showing that vegetarians don’t live any longer than omnivores when health consciousness is factored out. The study in question neither had this as a stated aim. nor was it a finding that it claimed to have made. It was just about whether eating fresh fruit and veg affected mortality.
These quickly undermined any confidence I had in the writer, and I gave up on this article after that. If you want to make unsubstantiated claims, please have the good grace to present them as opinion and not to hide them behind false references and academic pretensions.
1. You can find many additional references showing that B12 in plant foods is not a viable source here: http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-7c.shtml.
2. You have to read the full-text of the study. Look at Table 3. After adjusting for age and smoking, vegetarians had a slightly higher risk of death from all causes than omnivores among the health-conscious group. It is not relevant that this wasn’t a stated aim of the study; the finding is in the data.
I have found the same thing with most of Chris’s references. The study on the omnivores vs vegetarians also found that a vegetarian diet was associated with a lower risk of death from ischaemic heart disease, and they also referenced other studies with the same finding. Of course, that detail was left out. Another study previously quoted by the author to support the omni vs veg having same lifespan was the EPIC study. Yet, this study found that red meat was associated with an increased risk of colorectal cancer. Again, not mentioned.
I also find it hard to believe that choline deficiency is a concern… the average person gets over 1,000 mg a day despite the RDA being only about 420mg. I use choline in my daily research and know it well. One recent study showed that men in the highest quintile of choline intake had a 70% increased risk of lethal prostate cancer.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22952174
I could get into the other flaws in this article, but I have neither the patience nor the time.
“I also find it hard to believe that choline deficiency is a concern… the average person gets over 1,000 mg a day”
Do you have some data for that? That statement directly contradicts the findings of this study: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1753-4887.2009.00246.x/abstract
“Mean choline intakes for older children, men, women, and pregnant women are far below the adequate intake level established by the IOM. Given the importance of choline in a wide range of critical functions in the human body, coupled with less-than-optimal intakes among the population, dietary guidance should be developed to encourage the intake of choline-rich foods.”
My apologies, I could have sworn I saw that number somewhere, but you are right: it is inaccurate. Must have had a brain fart!
I still don’t see potential choline deficiency as a reason to not eat a vegan diet. Studies in the literature looking at choline deficiency give their subjects less than 50 mg per day for several days to induce the deficiency. The only way to match this on a vegan diet is to eat mostly junk food, since plants contain adequate amounts of choline.
Also, the study you referenced concluded that mean intakes were below that established by the IOM – which means these people were below the RDI even though they consumed meat. Doesn’t really make the case for eating meat.
It also mentions that choline plasma levels are also dependent on folate. Given that the majority of our population is folate deficient, this may explain why most are exhibiting a secondary choline deficiency. Sure enough, when you give folate to people with a choline deficiency, they get better.
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/129/3/712.long
Perhaps, instead of advising people to eat meat, we should be advising them to eat leafy green vegetables and beans so that they have adequate folate and choline.
There is no evidence to suggest that a vegan diet comprising of plenty of folate-rich green vegetables will result in a choline deficiency. If there is, I would love to see it. And given the association of high choline intake with prostate cancer, we should be wary of getting too much of it.
In addition to nutrient deficiencies, vegetarians and vegans also all suffer copper toxicity. It’s due to zinc deficiency, which opposes copper. http://www.liveto110.com/copper-toxicity-syndrome
I’m actually kind of bummed that Chris simply re-iterates the well known veg*n deficiencies, e.g. B12, DHA, retinol A. But what about all the rest? The lesser known, but equally important?
These can ONLY be found in meat or fish too, and they are needed as much as other well-known vitamins:
– Taurine
– Carnosine
– L-acetyl-carnitine
– Creatine
And not to mention things like CoQ10 and PQQ which are super important, and can only be found in good quantities in animal hearts (plants have very little of them). And of course, collagen. Ever wondered why so many vegans have white hair by the age of 30?
The peer-reviewed evidence is not as strong on these nutrients, and their requirement in the diet is not as well-established in the literature, so that’s why they’re not included here.
And believe me, the deficiencies listed in this article are *not* well-known or accepted in the mainstream health world, much less the vegetarian or vegan worlds.
30 year old here who has never consumed a shred of meat in my entire life with not even one remotely grey hair on my head.
I’m 32 with a full head of gray hair, but a full belly of bacon. I’ll happily choose bacon.
Just wait. It happened to me around age 36-38. Massively. Wirey grey hair like all vegetarians I ever saw growing up. I thought they were healthy and much older, but now I realized the truth. They look healthy for older people, but not for their actual age.
I think that one biggy, (that is usually analyzed as two separate things, rather than be formally related) is Zn-carnosine to stabilize the gut. {I think it to be high levels in human-colostrum, but do not know for sure.}
Thanks for this Chris. I share the concern which I think you raised about children being raised as vega*tarians… like religion, I think this should be an choice left ’till adulthood.
Humans are opportunistic omnivores and it may be possible to meet our complete nutritional needs without any animal products (although ALL life on this planet shares the same genome and is part of massive recycling project.. including humans) but I daresay it is a great deal easier to get full nutrition from say as steak than from multiple fruits and vegetables.
In particular: growing children have much different needs than a mature adult and the lack of essentials can lead to a lifetime of issues.
Notably, I understand that both Drs. Barnard and McDougall were raised on cattle ranches.. only choosing to eschew meat as adults.
I was one of the very fortunate few people in the world who was raised by health- conscious, awakened parents who never fed me animal flesh or products. See, as a baby, I never instinctively wanted to kill animals- instead, I preferred to pat and cuddle them. The act of killing animals or paying others to kill them is something that is learned through social conditioning. If anything, children should be raised vegan and should choose as adults whether or not they want to begin to unnecessarily cause harm to others for no reason other than palate pleasure.
Or perhaps children should be raised as ecologically appropriate omnivores with humanely sourced animal products, and then they can choose to become vegetarian once they’re at the age where they can make a decision that will potentially affect their long-term health.
God forbid you force veganism on a child who has a genetic polymorphism that leaves them unable to convert vitamin A, B12, or omega-3 fats from plant foods, (perhaps they have the MTHFR mutation or a beta-carotene SNP) and they end up seriously ill from lack of bioavailable nutrients.
Not everyone thrives on a vegan diet, and it’s inhumane to experiment on a young child who may face a lifetime of poor health thanks to inadequate nutrition during their critical formative years.
Inhumane? That’s a big call. I am also fortunate to have access to dieticians who are more educated in REAL nutrition than most, and are not still brainwashed by much of the bias of the the farming lobbies- I mean, educational institutions.
Well personally I would never advocate a vegan diet for a child, but that’s based on my own knowledge and continuing daily study of human nutrition, biochemistry, and genetic influence on dietary needs. But hey, that’s just me. If it works for you, go for it. At least the information is out there for people who want to make an informed choice.
Annette, you’ve “never instinctively” wanted to kill an animal and eat it because you’ve never had to. Starvation is not social conditioning and god forbid you are ever starving and the only thing to eat is an animal you’ll have to kill.
There is way of eating that supports non-violence. To not kill animals or plants and even microbes etc. Since on a physical level we do not see much immortality perhaps we could only eat things that have died from natural causes in addition to nuts and fruits. To kill is very bad karma, and to advocate killing by supporting in any way the existence of a society that supports killing is not that good.
Oh, I don’t have patience for this.
This is giving me a headache.
Why not eat road kill then??
I know a vegetarian who eats roadkill only. He commutes into town and if there’s a critter on the tarmac who wasn’t there before, he’s in. Usually a rabbit but brush tailed possums are a wonderful animal to dine on.
If he eats roadkill he’s not a vegetarian he’s an omnivore
Have you tried mentioning this to any Accipiters?
I think you missed one Chris, the amino acid taurine. Taurine is a quasi-essential nutrient, in that children will auto-produce it from cysteine, but adults absolutely need it from food and fish/meat are THE best sources vs vegetables that have none. R. Huxtable found that taurine tightly binds zinc onto membranes of cells. Because taurine is a Zwitterion (oppositely charged on each end of the same molecule) it gives each cell-surface its negative charge and since like-charges-repel, cells stay apart. [important for environmental allergies] This binding of the zinc onto membrane sites makes it THE ‘pool’ of zinc for inside-of-cell usage. This coupling is also the way cells channel potassium to cell’s inside, while leaving sodium outside cells. [if interest: zinc is gleaned from foods-eaten by the ligand PgE2. Long-considered a bad guy PgE2 promotes inflammation and helps ??? when sesame lignans block inflammation … do they block zinc uptake too?]
Well, there’s an answer for my query above.
If we’re on paleo, we shouldn’t consume dairy, but in your article you don’t suggest so eating only vegetables to get calcium. So are you suggesting that paleo people should go back to consuming dairy? Sorry, I’m just confused and want to have a good understanding. Thanks!
Most Paleo dieters today do consume FERMENTED dairy (so, little lactose remains). Some do rice too. In the earlier days of Paleo (when Wolf’s book came out), things were more strict. Now, it’s not so. Even Wolf himself eats these now.
The Caucasian people who used to live past 100 yo, ate mostly goat milk kefir, for example. But it was always fermented, and from casein A2 animal (goat/sheep/buffalo).
So, as long as you don’t have a major dairy intolerance, where even a minute amount of lactose, or all types of casein being problematic, there’s no problem to have fermented A2 dairy.
Speaking for myself, I get stomach pain when I drink plain milk (full fat, raw not available here), but I have zero problems with home-made goat kefir, fermented for 24 hours.
I’d go as far as to say that lentils aren’t the evil that Paleo people think they are either. Research is lacking, but there are three papers that show that when SOME legumes are soaked and pressure-cooked, they become WAY LESS problematic than nuts (which are full of anti-nutrients and omega-6, and yet, Paleo has endorsed them).
So, Paleo in 2008 is not the same as Paleo in 2014. New papers have come out, millions have tried the diet and tested what works for them and what not. Paleo is a template, not a hard rule. If it was a hard rule, we shouldn’t be eating any of the modern veggies and hybrid fruits either. But we do.
Jersey cow milk is also A2.
Yes, but they usually mix it with other cows’ milk in the industry, so unless you’re buying directly (usually from the Amish), you won’t find “jersey cow milk”. While goat, sheep and buffalo, are marked as such. So for all intends and purposes, it’s best to avoid cow milk (if casein-intolerant) if you don’t know exactly from which type of cow it came from. This is why I didn’t mention Jerseys.
Chris Kresser has sourced A2 milk for himself. We have it here in our local supermarket in Christchurch, New Zealand but sadly it seems to go sour very quickly as it has a slow turnover on the shelf due to the price I suspect and it’s only available in 2L bottles which is a lot for moi to drink on my own.
I get Jersey cow milk at my local food co-op. It’s pure Jersey cow milk
I only drink raw Jersey milk from a dairy that only raises Jersey cows using traditional pasture-based methods. It is definitely worth researching what you eat, because when I first switched to raw cows milk I still had digestion problems due to consuming milk of both Jerseys and Holsteins. I don’t have any problems with raw Jersey milk.
Not always, a herd local to me is approx 80% a2, I asked the farmer , though it is raw. He is working to increase his herd to 100% a2
Buffalo milk and goats milk I believe is a2
Good comment, but “The Caucasian people who used to live past 100 …” is problematic.
Oh, to have the Caucasus (particularly older, purer one), in New York …
It was meant as “the Caucasus people”, not Caucasian. This is why kefir was mentioned as well. English is not my first language.
I just wrote a book called “Your Personal Paleo Code”. The idea behind that book is using the Paleo diet as a starting point, rather than a destination. I’ve argued that full-fat dairy, dark chocolate, alcohol, nightshades and even properly prepared legumes and grains are all healthy when 1) well-tolerated by the individual, and 2) consumed in moderation.
The argument that legumes are toxic because of lectins isn’t supported by the evidence. Raw lectins are certainly problematic, but lectins in beans are destroyed by heat, and I don’t know anyone eating raw beans. I’ll be writing more about this soon.
I agree that vegetarian and especially vegan diets are deficient in essential nutrients, and that optimal diets contain animal products. However, we live in a toxic world where environmental pollutants concentrate in animal fat, even from animals raised organically on the most pristine pastures. Perfluorochemicals, DDT, hexachlorobenzene, PCB’s, dioxins, organochlorine pesticides concentrations are much higher in fish, meats, cheese, dairy and poultry than in vegetable foods. http://nutritionfacts.org/video/food-sources-of-perfluorochemicals/
I think I don’t understand.
Are you promoting a deficient diet?
See this article I wrote that puts the risk of dioxins and mercury in fish and other animal products into perspective. Short version: it’s a non-issue in most cases. The benefits of eating these foods far outweigh the potential harms.
Haven’t studies shown that vegans (more so than vegetarians) are at higher risk of developing early onset dementia?
As is evidenced by some of the earlier commentators’ assertions with regards to its efficacy.
well wouldn’t that depend on what they’re eating…..
I read there was evidence of a link between non-fermented soy (tofu) and dementia but none between fermented soy (tempeh). Tempeh isn’t that great to eat, I reckon, miso is lovely but natto – ugh! You can disguise it with mayonnaise, sauerkraut and mustard. Being quite hungry helps too.
Oh please, post links to these studies. Dementia wiped out an entire generation in my family, and it’s also affecting members on the other side of my dna. Every single person I’m related to that has demetia has been a lifelong meat eater, so please, show me the studies that say non-meat eaters are the ones who are more likely to be affected.
You might want to read the book called “Grain brain” by Dr. Perlmutter. Or watch the interview with him where he explains about his findings on how high carb and low fat diet can destroy your brain.
Dr Perlmutter’s opinion has been debunked.
Here is a quote from the article–
Here are my thoughts on the diet–
I checked out articles about the Grain Brain book and found the book to be quite biased with much fallacies about diet. I think the author suggested his diet of high fat and low carbs because the brain that is made up of 60% fat is more vulnerable to glycation damage on proteins(including blood veins) due to high blood glucose(from consuming high GI carbs) compared to other parts of the body that have more protein percentage to shield against glycation’s protein damage.(view footnotes about glycation)
I also think that the earliest human species had to binge on fat because it was the most convenient source of calories because fat has 9 calories per gram compared to carb’s and protein’s 4 calories per gram. And they didn’t know when their next meal would be coming so they had to binge efficient calories(from fat) as much as possible. Fat was also needed to keep bodies warm during cold winters.
So I don’t think modern humans have to necessarily follow the eating habits of ancient humans. Modern people now have the luxury of eating more healthy foods and less of a need to binge on high calorie fat, and also are able to obtain good heating during cold winters so there is less of the need to require fat to keep the body warm.
Much modern advances in acquiring food and heating means that the human species can more easily adopt a vegan lifestyle in modern times compared to the past.
I feel that the author has committed the fallacy of thinking that the ancient diet is most natural and that modern man has to follow it. There is also the fallacy of thinking that carbs has to be drastically reduced just because the brain is more vulnerable to glycation’s protein damage compared to other parts of the body.
Debunked by who? Care to share links?
Also, Sharon, you say “I feel that the author has committed the fallacy of thinking that the ancient diet is most natural and that modern man has to follow it.”
So basically, you think we should disregard our ancestral diet and go for something that our bodies are not adapted to subsist on.
I suggest you watch this (if you can do it with an open mind) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WemanmrAYvg
I watched the video you recommended. I don’t have faith in Weston-Price Foundation as too many things are unscientific – quite scary: “The diet of modern American women is so appalling, and their preparation for successful breastfeeding so lacking, that their breast milk provides no better nourishment for their infants than factory-made formula.” “If you have any qualms or fears about not having enough milk, assemble the ingredients for homemade formula…”
Of course, I agree with Keith on certain aspects of how the earth is being devastated by us humans. But the “agriculture” causing the land to stripped is more due to growing food for feeding animals not humans and the massive amount of mono planting is also due to crops used to feed animals – not humans.
Meat consumption worldwide has doubled in the last 20 years, and it is expected to double again by 2050. This is happening in large part because economies are growing and people can afford more meat. Basically, there’s no way to produce enough meat for 9 billion people.
Marine fish provide 15 percent of all animal protein consumed by humans. Under this intense pressure — 15 percent of 7 billion people (and growing), every year, year in, year out — global fisheries are collapsing.
While Keith is in an environment where she can find food in a natural environment – doesn’t work for the masses or me.
Sentience is the ability to feel, perceive, or to experience subjectivity. Plants just don’t have the biology – brain/pain sensors/organs which enable them to see, hear, taste, etc. like animals do.
Meat consumption worldwide has doubled in the last 20 years, and it is expected to double again by 2050. This is happening in large part because economies are growing and people can afford more meat.
http://reliefweb.int/sites/reliefweb.int/files/resources/-Assessing_global_land_use%253a_balancing_consumption_with_sustainable_supply-2014LAND_REPORT.pdf
No to the contrary: http://www.pcrm.org/health/reports/dietary-guidelines-for-alzheimers-prevention.
PCRM — a vegan front organisation which tries to hide that fact… so no agenda or bias there LOL
I was vegan for more than 10 years it didn’t work for me and for many of my vegan friends. There is a lot myths on veganism health and ethical views. Animals kill each other and suffer without any human intervention. The cycle of life is nature law.
The Naïve Vegetarian
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/vegetarian.html#.Uwtfl02YbIU
Sam- please do not use the “animals kill each other so it’s okay for us to kill them” argument. Most people also say that humans are superior to animals due to intellect, conscience, morals, emotional capability, etc. Sooooo….if we’re so superior in those aspects then choosing not to kill would be a reason proving we are superior? Right? So the very basic argument that meat-eaters use to try to convince themselves it’s okay to eat the morally inferior beings is completely debunked! Veggies win
Who are these “most people” who suddenly morph into just the “meat-eaters” in your straw-man argument?
I for one accept the humans are just another animal… just another part of the wide ranging and incredibly varied life on this planet — ALL of which is from the same genome.. ALL descended from the same common ancestor… animals AND plants.
Each day it seems that researchers overturn yet another idea about what separates us from the rest of life… being bi-pedal seems to be just about the only thing we have that is distinct.
As for being “superior” we are certainly not the fastest, strongest, longest-living, best equipped with senses etc.. etc… etc…
Sure we are aware of our own abstract thought and able to communicate it to others in our species (well some of us are anyway) but we make a mistake when we judge other life only by our own standards… just as you are doing.
Even plants are now being shown to “react” to the environment and external stimuli.. they exhibit “behaviours” — although I hesitate to use those human-descriptive words for something that we barely comprehend yet…
PBS – Nature: What Plants Talk About…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7MOe5clOtI
ALL life is important and ALL needs to be treated with respect.. including humans
Be careful, or you own line of thinking may leave you with NOTHING to eat.
lol Frank. I love you man. I’ve read many of your comments and I have to say, well played sir. You have utterly pwned these dimwits. Thanks for your time and contributions.
Thanks so much for this info, particularly the paragraph on iron. I adopted an ovo-lacto vegetarian diet in my early 20s (so around 25 years ago) for ethical reasons. I felt amazing for the first three weeks or so, but after a couple of months I was plagued with fatigue, headaches, irregular heartbeat (I already had a congenital murmur) and irregular menstrual periods. Two different doctors told me that I was severely anemic and that while most people have more trouble absorbing non-heme iron than heme iron, I had even more trouble with that than the average person and really didn’t seem to be absorbing any at all. This explained a lot about my lifelong borderline anemia. So I added meat back into my diet with the understanding that my body needed heme iron, but I never knew until reading this article today that a vegetarian diet makes the body even less able to absorb non-heme iron! Geez, no wonder I was so anemic!
I understand that dairy is your best bet for available calcium. I suffer from vitiligo and have switched over to a paleo diet after being told for years there was nothing I could do and to expect it to get worse. I have actually seen some of my spots begin to re-pigment while doing the autoimmune protocol only to stop any progress when I re-introduce foods. If it turns out that I have a problem with dairy, how can I get enough calcium without supplementation? I know that I am low in Vit D so I assume that is effecting my calcium levels as well, and not eating dairy… It is such a struggle trying to get help from conventional doctors and even the naturopathic doctors I see seem to abide by conventional wisdom. Thank you for what you do…
These may provide more background information for you:
http://chriskresser.com/calcium-supplements-why-you-should-think-twice
http://chriskresser.com/does-dairy-cause-osteoporosis
Very finely ground up egg shells added to things like pasta sauce or on your cereal in the morning are a great way to add bio-available calcium to your diet (surprisingly, milk and dairy are not very bio-available sources of calcium).
After using the egg, rinse and dry the shells completely. Drying them in a very low oven is a good way to do this. Then grind the shells up in a coffee grinder or mortar and pestle until they are a fine powder.
Constructive advice. Thanks for that. I’ll just need to get past the fact that the neighbours’ free range eggs are covered in poo streaks, Ah well.
Elizabeth, for calcium i drink nettle infusion. it contains copious amounts of calcium and other vitamins and minerals. if you do a search online for ‘nourishing nettle infusion’ you’ll fine plenty of information. it tastes quite strongly but there’s way to getting around it with some tweaking. i usually drink it cold, diluted with some water and with fresh lemon juice and grated ginger.
Some recommend SILICA for calcium, sayiing it is transformed into it.
Silica transformed into calcium??? I would like to know what biochemical pathway is used to perform nuclear fusion, LOL!!!
Please read Nicholas Kristoff’s column in the New York Times today, and the slew of comments that followed. As usual, as a response to a factory farming article, every commenter is touting some form of vegetarianism. It’s scary. I worry meat may be banned one day.
Nothing (and nobody) in the world can force me to read Kristoff (and increasingly the NYT, or at least its columnists)
I get that “healthy user bias”. Makes sense.
But some studies, such as the “Blue Zone” studies of the long-lived all over the world, do not compare health food shoppers to others, etc, but examine whole societies that maintain a traditional way of eating that are thought to be the reason behind their longevity.
(More on this here: http://www.garmaonhealth.com/diet/blue-zones-longer-life)
There are common traits among these long-lived societies irrespective of where located on the planet.
Some eat meat, but the quantity of it is overwhelmed by veggies, legumes, beans, nuts… plus a big dose of low intensity, constant moving.
I’m glad that Chris is more open to a wider banquet of food than the Paleo archetype, because if the Blue Zoners are an example of which diets support a long and healthy life, it’s one with more than meat and veggies on the table at every meal.
-Joe
Joe,
The Blue Zone studies are problematic, just like the China Study. I’ll post a critique of them in the future.
There were few, if any, traditional cultures that were vegetarian, and anthropological evidence suggests that up to 50% of daily calories for our Paleolithic ancestors came from animal products.
There’s not much support from an evolutionary perspective for a vegetarian diet, and even less for a vegan diet.
Appreciate you taking the time to reply, Chris.
Enjoyed your Book Talk Nation interview. Wish there was more time as I noted that there were some pretty interesting questions submitted that the moderator chose not to/didn’t have time to ask… questions that would not be easy to answer via google.
For instance, there was someone seeking your perspective re high fasting blood sugar levels. This was asked by a self-proclaimed Paleo who eschews carbs, and has 5% body fat. But he suffers from some chronic fatigue syndrome and other energy-sapping stuff.
One of your blog posts was very helpful for me to understand that my own high (100) fasting blood sugar number may not be problematic if post meal sugar, triglycerides and hemoglobin A1c tests numbers were good (which they are).
It seems that nuances matter.
-Joe
Look into potato starch, mine was 100, a week later on ps, 85
hey Joe, I was casually reading the comments and realized you were speaking about my ? during the Book talk nation event:) I’m actually a “patient” of Chris Kresser(one consult, but haven’t been able to get a 2nd consult in several months b/c of his book tour…that is another story) and I am trying to sort out why my fasting glucose is rising despite Paleo. Like yourself, I appreciate the wealth of info that Chris Kresser provides and feel his articles are an amazing resource for people like myself that have been forced into “self treatment” b/c of the failures by the medical system. I’m one of those people that when “healthy”(before chronic illness struck), tried Vegan diets, raw foods, & vegetarianism for many years and performed as a “pro-level” athlete, but looking back I can only hypothesize that I would have performed better with a higher fat diet w/ high quality animal proteins. Unfortunately, I have not realized the amazing turn around that many people realize who undertake the “paleo type” diet, but my case is quite severe(osteoporosis in my 30’s, CFS, Fibro, leaky gut, sjogrens autoimmune, possible Lyme, & more fun diagnoses). However, Chris(during our consult) and my other doctors all proclaim they think I’d be much worse off if I hadn’t started on “strict paleo”…hence, my 5% body fat and fit appearance, despite feeling like death most days with debilitating physical/mental fatigue(used to surf daily, cycle everywhere, travel the globe, never miss work, fitness model, etc..not a “quit on life” type of guy). Certain biomarkers like fasting glucose that are getting worse, progressive bone loss(despite K2 supplementation), are making me rethink if Paleo is actually helping my particular case. I’d trade in the appearance of health that the Paleo diet seems to have provided me for even a 20% improvement in my daily cognition and the energy to simply walk a mile, let alone surf the open seas again(my passion before illness struck..I actually fell deathly in in Indonesia in 15 years ago, in a story eerily similar to Kresser’s..why I was so hopeful he could solve my case). If I were smarter or could just be less brain fogged more often, I could likely utilize all the free and amazingly informative information that Chris Kresser provides(selflessly in my opinion) to resolve my own case…however, I just don’t have that much faith in my brainpower;) Watching Kresser’s meteoric rise has actually been a joy, despite it preventing me from following up with him for my personal case…a true example of good people being rewarded for hard passionate altruistic work. I feel bad, I gently “trolled” Chris during that online forum looking for a way as a patient(I paid a huge consult fee to him and was on a long wait list) to have my questions answered since I have not been able to schedule a follow up with his office. I feel bad b/c in no way did I want to take away from the incredible service he provides so many desperately ill people and those simply hoping to optimize their health, but I was also at a loss of how to get through to him. I realize this is a bit off topic and I apologize. I digress, my glucose might be rising for unrelated reasons and as you said may not be an issue for me..however it is a challenge to explain this to the Naturopaths and MDs I see here in Oregon. Funny anecdote, an OHSU(research hospital here) resident Internal Med who saw me was literally in awe & starstruck that he was “sharing” a patient with Chris Kresser…this is a great sign if allopathic medical students are being reached by Kresser’s message(sadly the student couldn’t put into practice what he learned from following Kresser’s work). I think it is important to note as Chris points out in his new book, that Paleo is not one size fits all and I believe this is the case for most “diets/lifestyles” in general. I also feel as Dr. Terry Wahl’s will attest, diet can help those with major health issues, but if your case is severe like mine, diet alone will not resolve most major health cases. It takes diet in combination with lifestyle change, supplements, medication(i.e. LDN), & community(real>virtual, virtual>zero). I have had many a heated debate with family and friends telling me that my “restrictive” diet obviously isn’t working and I should just eat gluten and “live a little”….of course they are viewing things through the privileged lens of robust health, despite bad eating habits. I’ve also had to bite my tongue when trying to convert my autoimmune friends over from their Vegan diets, realizing that it just isn’t that simple for most. Even if I do overcome my many health ailments(looking less likely as I approach 40), I have promised myself to never proselytize to others about any specific diet that has helped me overcome my own unique health predicament. Chris Kresser’s approach resonates so well with many(including myself) because he seems to be open to new research at all times and does not come off dogmatic, while providing excellent fodder for healthy debate. I wish we could all fast forward into the future and see the long-term double blinded studies that show which particular diet provides health and eternal bliss to all…until then, vegans will fight meat eaters for supremacy in online forums, athletic events, TV/movies/stage;)(MMA fighters: Vegan Mac Danzig vs. nearly all MMA, triathletes:Rich Roll Vs. Ben Greenfield, Famous folk: Bill Clinton/Al Gore/Woody Harrelson/Jayz/Beyonce(Vegans) vs. Matthew Mcconaughey/Megan Fox/Jessica Biel) I think the famous examples of both diets, go a long way in showing how success can be fueled by vastly different sources…without getting into the “moral debate” of either lifestyle, “whatever works” for the individual in my opinion is the best approach. It takes trial and error and it is impossible to take all the “bias” out when judging if an individual is healthy or looks good because of or despite the diet they pursue. Again, I apologize for my all over the place input and somewhat off topic comment… To all those reading who are also desperate to overcome long-term, stigmatized amorphous conditions(i.e. CFS/Fibro/Lyme/autoimmune)…keep advocating for yourself and you are not alone, seek community and GOOOO Vegan or GOOOO Paleo, ha, ha I kid, do what works for you! peace:) Most important, if you have a friend or loved one who is ill or even a stranger, try not to judge…a modicum of compassion can save a person’s life.
http://www.hellenicjcardiol.com/archive/full_text/2011/5/2011_5_479.pdf
http://www.businessinsider.com/ikaria-greece-longevity-secrets-2012-7?op=1
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3051199/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3051199/table/tab2/
http://www.motherjones.com/tom-philpott/2012/10/ikarian-greek-island-diet-health-benefit
http://realbalance.com/icaria-long-lived-people-and-no-dimentia
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/28/magazine/the-island-where-people-forget-to-die.html?_r=0
“Ikarians, by contrast, eat meat on average just five times per month. And Ikarians eat about a quarter as much sugar as Americans do, and very little processed food (although that is beginning to change.) The overall diet is classic Mediterranean. Buettner describes a typical couple’s daily food routine:
[A] breakfast of goat’s milk, wine, sage tea or coffee, honey and bread. Lunch was almost always beans (lentils, garbanzos), potatoes, greens (fennel, dandelion or a spinachlike green called horta) and whatever seasonal vegetables their garden produced; dinner was bread and goat’s milk. At Christmas and Easter, they would slaughter the family pig and enjoy small portions of larded pork for the next several months.
So they’re eating a low-meat, relatively seafood-rich, nutrient-dense diet with plenty of greens and (he emphasizes elsewhere) olive oil. Buettner also mentions a warm beverage they drink which he translates as “mountain tea,” “made from dried herbs endemic to the island,” a rotating, seasonal list that includes wild marjoram, sage, mint, and dandelion leaves. Buetnner had samples of the greens tested in a lab, and they proved to be “rich sources of polyphenols” with “strong antioxidant properties.””
Well, problems …
-What is classic Mediterranean diet?
– Don’t you think there can be diversity there?
– Don’t you think that “Mediterranean diet” can be some fiction?
– The “Mediterraneans” I’ve met eat meat even in summer in spite of heat. Did you check the climate there including the amount of sun? Did you check their lifestyle? Are you sure that the “Mediterraneans” spend their days and nights in cubicles? Is it possible that Canadians and Norwegians won’t last long on Ikarians” diet? etc.
The Ikarians also fast for 150 days a year, and given its proven links with increased health markers, it’s difficult to attribute their longevity to other factors such as dietary macronutrient composition.
Well, let’s see…
1 – Goat milk: In order to produce milk, goats must have babies. What do they do with the babies? I’m quite certain that at least the males are eaten. Otherwise their island would be overrun with goats by now.
2 – Eating meat 5 times per month: That’s about once a week plus. That’s pretty regular meat consumption, even if it’s in small amounts.
3 – Slaughtering a pig twice a year: You can bet that if they’re going to the trouble to raise and slaughter pigs, they are using as much of the animal as they can. This would lead me to believe that they are probably cooking regularly with the fat from the animal, as well as likely making stocks or soups from the bones.
4 – “relatively seafood rich”: While not mentioned in the snapshot of a typical daily diet, this quote (and the fact that they live on an island) tells me that they are also eating fish and/or shellfish on a regular basis. Last I checked, that is also the meat of an animal.
Does this culture seem to eat less meat than the standard American diet? Yes, but they are far from vegetarian, and definitely not vegan. They also eat far more fresh food than most Americans, and seem to lead far less stressful lives — I would be much more inclined to attribute greater health and/or longer lives to those two factors (along with regular movement, as mentioned by Joe above), than to their non-existent vegetarian diet.
(For clarification, I am responding only to the quoted material above. I have not clicked through and read the links.)
The culture who brought us sublime and highly advanced Spiritual practices such as Yoga (observance, not the physical workout) and Ayurveda (the science of self healing) were vegetarian. And they’ve been around for yonks! The wisdom goes beyond studies, and counting vitamin and mineral content. As Vimalananda calls westerners ‘time watchers’ – only able to measure things on the visual plane. It’s funny to watch the veg debate vs the paleo (which there’s a plug a book for on your post). It’s a level of consciousness that evolves over many lifetimes to need very little food and yet be in radiant health, that you hardly need sleep and yet have boundless energy.. and more. Let people eat what THEY are consciously evolved to want or need on their journey. You can’t tell another what is right for them…no matter how many ‘studies’ there are…
I live in India now, and can say that there is often a visible difference in health between Hindus and Muslims (who are meat eaters). It is visible in facial structure and dental health.
This is especially true in the middle class, because development has brought more processed foods to India, and Hindus buy tofu, for example, which was not really common in India before. There has been some movement away from traditional foods toward refined vegetable oils and boxed foods, low fat stuff like skim milk. And lots of sugar!
Historically, Hindus still ate a lot of dairy in the form of ghee, milk, yogurt, buttermilk, and paneer. While many would not eat eggs, because it’s not considered vegetarian, dairy has been an important staple.
Muslims, on the other hand, eat meat a few times per week, eggs, and also consume a lot of dairy. When goats are slaughtered here, the organ meats are important. My MIL always gave my husband goat kidney or brain if he was getting a cold. All of his siblings, his parents, his 36 aunts and uncles, too-many-to-count cousins, etc, have beautiful smiles and wide faces. No braces needed. Husband was 28 the first time he visited a dentist, and not because of lack of access.
His family was Hindu as recently as my husband’s great great grandfather. Since the family converted to Islam at that time, they have enjoyed good health on a natural diet that includes lots of animal products.
It mirrors many of the observations of Weston Price.
You make many assumptions here. Your definition of health is based on being very thin and having the energy to participate in things such as yoga.
Many people care to lead a much more active lifestyle, and the type of diet common for your ‘boundless energy’ would be completely insufficient for those people. I play baseball, basketball, practice parkour, AND do yoga regularly. I have more muscle mass than all vegetarians/vegans I know, and am confident that my lifespan will match any one of theirs. Eating meat does not equal eating an unhealthy diet.
You need to take a course in anthropology.
Do you really think women ate the same as men during our evolution ? Women and their children didn’t “hunt” with the men. I would imagine men ate ten times as much meat as women.
If you do some reading, you’ll find reasonable evidence that women ate mostly veggies, roots, nuts and fruits as they walked with their children. Do you really think men in those days would drag home a dead animal for say three miles for the women and children ? And have you ever considered that the ideal diet for a woman maybe quite different from that of a man ?
Well before 10,000 years ago when our current agriculture began, I believe the meat eaten was mostly animals remains left there from recent animal kills by animals…. no bow and arrows then, no knives.
And lastly, what hemispheres are you basing your research on ? You cannot generalize worldwide on the evolution of humans and diet because the climate and environment around the world are so different….and in the USA citizens come from all over the world.
You need to take a course in anthropology – this time pay attention, take lots of notes, and leave your sexist and ignorant assumptions out of the classroom.
“You cannot generalize worldwide on the evolution of humans and diet because the climate and environment around the world are so different…” Yet you still state rather decisively that “Women and their children didn’t ‘hunt’ with the men.” Care to provide some evidence of this? Because its insulting to women everywhere and in every time to just assume that women are incapable of killing prey due to lack of testicles.
Say you’re right (you’re not), and women in hunter-gatherer societies never ever hunt WITH men. Doesn’t mean they lack meat! In cultures like the Bushmen of the Kalahari, the men DO, in fact, “drag home a dead animal for say three miles for the women and children”. Because many foraging societies were and are fiercely egalitarian, the idea of the men keeping all the meat to themselves would be unthinkable (see Marshall Sahlins’ paper, “Notes on the Original Affluent Society”).
But lets not stop there! The women GATHER many foods beyond fruits, nuts and tubers. They also gather ostrich eggs and a huge variety of insects – hello protein! (see Brian Morris, Insects and human life). Now, this is just an example of women in a friggin desert! Imagine the possibilities in other bioregions. What about women’s psychological or physiological makeup renders them incapable of trapping, catching, killing, and “gathering” rodents, reptiles, birds, small primates, insects, fish, crustaceans, molluscs, eggs of all kinds, or even “animals remains left there from recent animal kills by animals”.
So thanks, Harry, for informing everyone here that us poor girls must have a different diet because we just don’t have the wherewithal to feed ourselves. Next time, let the ladies speak for themselves.
I’m just a guy but I was cheering you on all through this comment Liz
Take a look at even extant hunter-gatherers like the Australian aboriginals: to see women taking an active (if not the leading) role in gathering animal-based sources of fat and protein such as lizards, fish, eggs, birds, witchetty grubs etc…
Wooo Hooo Liz! I couldn’t ahve said it better!
I agree that “man the hunter” is grossly overstated. The vast, vast majority of our evolutionary history was probably spent as omnivorous scavengers. It’s quite likely that plant matter, including starchy tubers, made up a significant portion of our diet for more than a million years. We would have gladly dined on carrion when we found it but fighting off the owner would have been a dangerous game, one we certainly wouldn’t have been dabbling in a million years ago.
As for genetic differences around the world, in the context of human evolution, I wonder whether the timeline really is sufficient to have altered the framework of our nutritional needs. Homo sapien DNA existing in geographically isolated pockets is a relatively new phenomenon and one which is slowly ceasing to be relevant except in the most extreme locations.
Just 7,000 years ago the cave dwellers in Spain (who had dark skin and blue eyes) were lactose intolerant and unable to digest starches.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-25885519
The article goes on to say that the diet was mostly protein (they omitted to mention the fat, but I doubt that the fat was wasted).
We are still learning a great deal about the diets of early people. Those people from the Spanish caves had not yet discovered agriculture. Hunter-gatherers in other parts of the world, no doubt, may have had a diet that was largely starch – and by that time possibly largely grains – but we can’t make blanket statements about the diets of early peoples the world over. We do know, however, that very early humans ate the fatty and soft parts of killed animals and this enabled their brains to grow. Cooking may well have started 1.9 million years ago, making meat easier to eat (Catching Fire: How Cooking Made Us Human. Wrangham). It’s not that easy to chew a piece of muscle meat. Early people would have been able to consume more nutrient-dense calories this way.
In a programme I watched about modern-day hunter-gatherers, the men ate the parts of the animal that would go off the quickest – the organ meat – and took the rest back to the village to share.
Reference?
What about K2 as well?
Not needed, as long as these veg*ns are eating natto, the food with the most K2 in existence. 99.9% of them aren’t eating it though.
@Chris
Why have you changed you position on white potatoes and white rice? I thought they were “safe” starches that were okay to eat.
Thanks for this Chris — it’s a topic I really feel strongly about. I understand if people are concerned about animal welfare but destroying their body and their health is not the solution.
Particularly destroying the bodies and health of children. I suspect that at a certain moment the law will have to interfere.
Personally, I’ve met only one vegan (sorry ex-vegan) who is decent enough not to put his two cats on a vegan diet.
Only one vegan that was decent enough to not make their cats eat vegan as well? That’s a scary statistic to observe…
Animal welfare is SO important, but it’s true, human welfare is also important. Why do people put animals before themselves and name themselves selfless? Especially when they’re just taking away the food supply from the herbivores? Their bodies are a lot better at energy and nutrient conservation (although despite that, their lifespans are often shorter, might I add)
Cows are cute, chickens are cute, but I feel there’s a balance and all living creatures understand it. It’s part of being an Earthling.
You’re right, these people should put themselves before animals- i mean, just LOOK at how malnourished they are! https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.651446311583081.1073741833.452441044816943&type=3
Annette, being malnourished may not show on the outside. These people could look great but could croak any second. Just because the car’s blinker light isn’t going off, doesn’t mean everything’s good.
I would also like to know what exactly they’re taking to supplement loss? Are they eating rice, potatoes, wheat, soy, beans? How about those vegan powders with a bunch of ingredients in them?
Could they do this living off the land? If society wasn’t able to float their lifestyle could they actually obtain this on their own?
Yes, my sentence was misleading. I noticed the problem, but there is no “edit” button here. I thought that my comment didn’t deserve additional corrective comment.
I just know only one ex-vegan. An he is pretty decent. I don’t know about others.
I have come across this article interesting to say the least ….
http://jb.asm.org/content/195/9/1902.full
I’d feel better about this if your article said “Please familiarize yourself with the process by which your meat gets to you (i.e. they just discovered men having sex with cows in an Idaho dairy.) More than ten million pounds of rotten beef has been recalled in the past week or two alone. The alternative, happy slaughter, is a myth. All animals fear death, know it’s coming, and don’t go willingly to it. Then you are truly offering your readers a service. Then they can honorably make up their own minds. Or they can take a vitamin or two instead. Otherwise your article is self-serving. I know you have drilled down to the micro-nutrient value of everything, but most people don’t optimize their lives to that extent anyway. Everyone is deficient in many things, starting with Vit. D, so laying that, to people who don’t know better, at the foot of veganism, is disingenuous because you know that is the case.
here here!
Well said!
What relevance does the fact that a few perverted people had sex with cows in one American state. I’m from Australia. Does this mean that we omnivores should avoid carrots, zucchinis, cucumbers, bananas and the like for the obvious (‘wink wink’) connotations these may have? As to the comment on spooled food, do what I did for most of last year and spend some time in third world countries to see the quality and nutritional value of fruits and vegetables in many of those countries. It is enough to make you want to eat meat!
Cows are pumped full antibiotics. They are milked with special machines. They’re fed absolute crap. Not the natural stuff their suppose to be fed. Then their utters end up infected from all of that. So of course theirs puss that the company isn’t filtering out of the cow since they’re allowed to have so much pus in a container of milk. So what you’re drinking is absolutely disgusting. Another fact: Our intestines are 3 times longer than any other omnivores or carnivores, so while we eat fruits and vegetables they go smoothly and quickly through our body. But the reason people get cancers is because meat moves slowly through our body and rots. just like if you sat some meat in a really warm room it would rot. And it sits in there for at least 48 hours. Other animals don’t get cancers but we do. and that’s because we eat this stuff that we shouldn’t. Meat isn’t something we’re suppose to put into our bodies. Please research Freelee the Banana girl on youtube. She fallows a fruit based diet and she’s extremely healthy. She has also post a video of a speech given by a vegan who will tell you the same things I told you here. It’s definitely worth watching.
Meat doesn’t cause cancer. What could be in the meat can. Antibiotics, growth hormones, whatever the cows eat we eat. If the cow ate GMO corn, we’re also eating GMO corn. Same goes for the vegetation. If it’s GMO or smothered in pesticides, same poo different pile. You know who’s actually pumped full of pus, hormones and antibiotics? US HUMANS. If you think the cow is really bad off, you should see the stuff they’re giving humans. Do you even know what those doctors are giving you, really? I mean, some of us even take a pill to affect our very ability to produce children and instinctively find a viable mate to produce healthy children with – AND NO ONE SEEMS TO QUESTION IT.
“Our intestines are 3 times longer than any other omnivores or carnivores, so while we eat fruits and vegetables they go smoothly and quickly through our body. But the reason people get cancers is because meat moves slowly through our body and rots.”
Who is to say it goes smoothly and quickly, or that it’s a good thing it does? That means you may not be absorbing everything you need from it. Also means that if meat is actually ROTTING in your intestines, you’d be feeling it a lot sooner! If your stomach acid is in working order, you are chewing properly, and aren’t impairing your stomach in ways such as diluting with water before a meal or being very stressed, digesting meat in reasonable portions should not be an issue.
We are not lions or wolves. We cannot eat JUST meat. We have canines, stomach acid, a small and large intestine for a reason. It’s true their stomach acid is 20x stronger and intestines are shorter, but they also can go a very long time before they have to eat again and they eat in large chunks without proper chewing. Keeps them fuller for longer.
If you tried to go and live off the land right now as a vegan or vegetarian, and this is without your supplements, you probably wouldn’t fair well. Especially if you live no where near the equator, and that’s a fact you can see with every native tribe that lives off the land. Even within these tribes, they actually value the bones and fat the most, as the marrow contains many AMAZING enzymes (like the ones in the home made chicken soup when you’re feeling sick), and the saturated fat containing the necessary energy to keep going for a long time. The meat they ate last is the meat most people try and buy today such as “lean meats” and muscle tissues.
Stress/adrenaline from the adrenal glands shut down digestive enzymes so you can’t break food down properly, something of which we see in this society today. So much stress that it just further promotes the idea that being a vegan is the smartest thing to do but is it really if you gotta take ANY supplements to make up for the lack of bioavailability?
Cancer, by the way, is inflammation. Instead of blaming meat (ludicrous, btw) you should be looking at undigested sugars from carbohydrates, starch (potatoes and rice) and refined sugars. Yeast causes cells to inflame, which allows cancer to tamper with the mitochondria of our cells and take over. As yeast dies off, it releases toxins into the blood stream and if a sufficient amount of die off gets to your brain, you’re basically dead. With a natural healthy balance of organic vegetables and free range meat, this isn’t typically a problem. When you’re doing a yeast cleanse, you actually have to avoid eating fruit and raw vegetables because of the natural yeast cultures on the vegetables. Sharks don’t get cancer, and what do they eat? Fish. Meat. Not plants. They’re also the rulers of the sea and highly muscular. When they’re not hunting, they’re also gentle creatures.
The paleo lifestyle has been working absolute wonders for me and I’m actually seeing myself recover from chronic fatigue, but seeing posts like these infuriate me because you’re doing nothing more than perpetuating the notion that we aren’t supposed to be eating something that we have been consuming for thousands of years and if it was really bad…
WE WOULD NOT BE HERE. HUMAN RACE WOULD HAVE CROSSED THE FINISH LINE CALLED EXTINCTION. We did not evolve over hundreds of thousands of years to eat a carrot.
I’m only 20 years old and it bothers the crap out of me that every aspect of our food supply has been tampered with and that the food guides promoted by government appointed nutritions are saying 25% of our diet at least should be grains, and now there’s people bashing meat because there’s big corporations that want to make a quick buck at the consumers expense by compromising the treatment and integrity of animals. If this were 100 years ago, the hardcore vegans would literally have no argument other than meat might have been expensive if you couldn’t afford it.
Anyways, to top off everything, I highly recommend checking this out.
“The Ideal Human Diet” a presentation by a naturopathic doctor named Dr. Paul Theriault
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GK8ls4-Rs1I
Question EVERYTHING. Question me, question yourself, question what you think is right / wrong. Don’t ever assume you have all the answers and put ideologies aside to find out what your body TRULY needs. Be realistic, be grounded – this is a lacking trait in the vegan community, and I can’t respectfully stay quiet and let someone impressionable think you’re absolutely right and possibly ruin their health.
Awesome post, Katie! Good luck with Paleo. I am a fellow traveler. It is working wonders for me.
thanks katie. your post made my day. so young and so reasonable. definitely on the right track. i am glad for you.
How do you know meat does not cause cancer? Well, what if it is excess animal protein that causes cancer….would you feel better with that and just continue eating all the meat you want along with dairy and eggs?
It might be all about the genotypes: 3 vegan women did a traverse of the South Island of New Zealand a few years ago. (Mana Wahine). 2 did very well but one started to fade and had to address a required change in her regime. They were eating the same food.
I have a heterozygous mutation affecting 1298ac, which along with other mutations I have, affects the methylation pathways. It’s crucial to have a functional amount of Vit B12 and folate to offset this. It’s pretty much standard for everyone to have some form of mutation affecting methylation.
I’m also wondering about some amino acids such as taurine being in short supply on a plant based diet but need to research this a bit more. I know cats can’t manufacture taurine and need it in their food. I think having a look at Dr Terry Wahl’s input on the same email from Chris says it all…
It’s a complete myth that meat rots in your colon. It’s completely digisted by the hydrocloric acid in your stomach. Plant matter, on the other hand, does that. It is what’s broken down by the bacteria in your intestine. This is the definition of rot. So it’s not plant matter that rots in your colon, it’s plant matter. However, that in itself isn’t a reason to not eat plants, either. Many people have found benefits to feeding their gut bacteria with resistant starch. So any “rotting” action in your colon could very well be a good thing.
*I meant it’s not meat, it’s plant matter.
How dare you inject logic and reason into this discussion?!
But of course you’re correct. Meat gets dealt with promptly in the stomach. It’s plant matter that makes the long (actually, relatively short) journey through our digestive system, “rotting” along the way. But that’s ok. As you stated, we have wonderful healthy colonies of bacteria that exist in perfect harmony with that plant matter. We evolved alongside animal and plant foods.
We are omnivores and our physiology clearly demonstrates that. Trying to outsmart our genes by replacing our ancestral food sources with pills may sound good on paper but I question the effectiveness.
true, and that’s why nobody gets bloated after eating meat, but there are many types of vegetables that blow you up like a balloon. those bacteria and the rotting process do produce a lot of gas…:-)
Is it also a myth according to you that people who eat large quantities of meat have a higher risk of colon cancer?
I would like to see a reference to the study verifying that…
“Other animals don’t get cancers but we do”. Wrong, other animals, fed on a western diet (cat and dog food) do get cancer and cats are carnivores with short guts, back to the drawing board for that theory. & when stomach acid has a Ph of 1-2 I don’t think meat just sits there and rots somehow.
Are you serious when you say something like meat “rots” in the intestine. That it is similar to sitting out in a warm room?! Did you never take biology, human anatomy, a health class for God’s sake?! The intestines are breaking down the meat and the vegetables and anything else you put in there, starting with the saliva, continuing with the stomach acids etc. Come on, let’s at least be half educated in our comments?
OMG! Seriously? Shoulda known the 30 banana’s a day nuts would show up defending their bizzare views. You just can’t get it through your nutrient deficient brains that there are actually livestock that don’t exist in feedlots. There are in fact, herds of cows and bison that graze off the grass like they are suppose to. You might try downloading the TED talk by Sir Allan Savory: http://www.ted.com/talks/allan_savory_how_to_green_the_world_s_deserts_and_reverse_climate_change.html
And they go right to the slaughter house from your dream meadows? I do not think there are many that do that….the owners prefer to fatten them up before slaughter and also give them plenty of antibiotics or worse if they need it to sell them.
your comment reveals such ignorance, that I wouldn’t know where to start educating you beyond the scope of a short reply. no wonder so many people are up to their necks in sh… it is not about food. the root cause of all misery is ignorance. so sad….
Thank you for pointing out what I already knew. It is unfortunate that some systems of slaughter put animals through more distress than is necessary and I certainly don’t believe in “happy slaughter” – a term I haven’t actually heard before. But I’m ok with the fact that animals face some distress in slaughter. I can see no way of avoiding a certain amount of distress in the process. Minimization of that distress is desirable. So know that at least one person is informed and will happily continue eating meat.
Sorry but your comment epitomises whats wrong with the human race – animals are living beings too. Meat eating is socially and culturally cultivated. It was a survival tactic in the early ages but there is no reason why people should consume it now. I think it boils down to people who just lack the foresight, intellect and compassion to understand the bigger picture.
Plants are also living things. And they also try to defend themselves from being eaten by employing a variety of anti-nutrients. The truth is, no living thing wants to end up as food, but we all do eventually.
That’s not entirely true. Fruits (and foods that we call veggies but are actually fruits like cucumbers and tomatoes) actually do want to be eaten. Anything with seeds or a pit wants to be eaten; that’s how they reproduce. People/animals eat the fruit of the plant, run off somewhere else, a little while later the seeds are eliminated along with some awesome fertilizer, or they eat the fruit and toss the pit aside, which can then grow into a new plant.
Aside from that, more plants die in order for people to eat meat then if you just eat plants. It takes a lot of plant calories to get a cow to size. Less animals and plants are harmed if we just eat plants, instead of filtering them through another animal. While some degree of suffering must be present in the way our world works, you would think minimizing it should be everyone’s duty. And while everything ends up food eventually, it’s pretty messed up that we bring billions of creatures into existence every year for the sole purpose of being food.
I was talking yesterday with a farmer who homekills his animals for food. I mentioned how someone at work recalled how the pigs would get distressed on her farm early in the morning that her father had in mind to slaughter one of them. He said in response to this that he’d often observed his flock of sheep would surround the one that he had chosen to kill that day. Hmmm….
Thanks for your eloquent rebuttal… It sure saved me the time doing it myself. I see this as a self serving article as well. I’m seeing a pattern emerge that every time there’s a video/expose’ released some “health” site posts the disadvantages of being vegan. I’m beginning to think it’s part of damage control. And I wouldn’t put it past them…
” All animals fear death, know it’s coming, and don’t go willingly to it:
And you know this how? Are you sure they will never die if we stop eating them?
The fear of death is one of the least problems with modern meat production, I would say. The “life” these animals have before is so full of suffering and cruelty it doesn’t even deserve this term.
But people continue to be egoistic and care only about good taste and stuff.
That rather depends on the farmer, my meat (I can go and view it on the hoof ) spends up to 3 years grazing on grass and clover, never kept in barns over winter as it is a native hardy breed.
Winter it feeds on grass or silage.
I too spent several years eating as a vegetarian, my health in December took a very serious turn and I became very ill. I went onto a veggie and meat based diet and am much improved. I have no choice when it comes to eating meat but I do have a choice where my meat comes from and how it has been reared. Carefully reared and slaughtered in a small local slaughter house where they believe in minimising stress, animals are kept by farmers to make a living and the good ones do it well. They don’t keep them to make the fields look pretty
And if the vegans had their way, what kind of a life do you think that cows, pigs, sheep, goats, chickens etc… would have? NONE! Do you think the farmers would keep them on as pets if they had no value to us? Stop living in a fantasy and get real
So if someone put you in captivity, exploited your reproductive organs by artificially inseminating you, then took away your babies so they could kill and eat them, are you meant to be grateful that at least your babies got to ‘live’? Are THEY meant to be grateful? Go and eat all the animals that are sitting in the farms- but stop forcing them to reproduce so you can eat their offspring!
Who said anything about gratitude?
I may be grateful to be a small part of this life-cycle/ecosystem but I don’t live in some kind of a Disneyfied fantasy world of talking bunnies and doe-eyed deer.
I am against factory-farming. I am against cruelty and disrespect for life… yes including humans — my own species! I am also against vast mono-cultures that are sucking up and wasting natural resources at an alarming rate.
But instead of whining and complaining, I am actually doing something about it.. not least of which is voting with my dollar; by supporting local, seasonal sustainable sources.
If you insist on adopting an unrealistic attitude to the facts of life, then please feel free to “stop the world and let you off”… just don’t expect that everyone else is barmy enough to jump ship with you.
“I am against cruelty and disrespect for life” LISTEN to yourself. Here I stand, vegan since birth, 30 years later- WITHOUT EVER having to have gone out of my way to harm or kill to fill my stomach and fuel my body. And you have the hide to claim to respect life? Give me a break- and don’t ever say that to a vegan again unless you want to be laughed at! What a joke.
So what life have you taken in your 30 years.. or what has been taken on your behalf?
Because you cannot live without taking life form another life-form on this planet.
Maybe you subscribe to the “we are all equal… but some are more equal than others” school of thought?
If I am a joke then you are an hypocrite.
Life as in SENTIENT life with complex nervous systems and the ability to experience pain. I’m sorry that you need people to point out the obvious without having the ability to see it by yourself.
You are really showing your ignornace now Annette, if you think that the dark-ages human-defined idea of sentience and complex nervous system are all that count these days. Do you really have no comprehension of just how complex and intertwined all life on this planet is and how even plants are now recognised to have reactions and “behaviours”..?
Time to get with the program and do some learning.. although that might end up undermining your dogmatic approach to life.
Even accepting your contentions about sentience and complex nervous systems, what about the animals which were “displaced” so that your plants could be grown? Or those poisoned — directly or indirectly — by pesticides and other chemicals used to speed their growth? Or those killed during the harvest, storage, processing and transportation?
Just so long as you can can bury your head in the sand or put your fingers in your ears so you don’t have to hear the screams personally eh?
Like I said.. hypocrisy.
Frank,
The number of plants grown for your food is 15 to 40 times the number used to grow my food. You seem to lack the basic understanding that the animals you eat for food eat a lot of plants. A lot of that in grains. And those grains are bought from countries and the poor there cannot afford to buy it at the prices offered from the meat industry. So, your meat animal is fed well, while the poor starve.
Animal agriculture uses more biocides than any other industry. And if farmers don’t use intensive farming techniques, they have to use much greater quantities of land which displaces more wildlife, increases green house gases, increases soil erosion, spreads water pollution, and increases the demand for more grazing land which is the primary reason why rain forests are being cut down.
Your head is the one buried in the sand. You are fighting tooth and nail to defend your atrocities and using every logical fallacy you can find to avoid looking at the evidence. It is out their, and you have to make a conscious decision to remain ignorant.
I could easily say pretty much every word for word right back at you Cappy…
Unlike you, I actually KNOW where my food comes from and NONE of the meat I buy is fed anything other than grasses and hay… stuff which is indigestible to humans (‘cos were not herbivores in case you missed that basic lesson in biology), stuff indeed, which can grown on land totally unsuitable for growing grains or other plants… but stuff which herbivores can efficiently convert into valuable food for humans, while simultaneously creating new topsoil and depositing biomass which helps in the next growth of even more grasses.
What a joke is right, Annette. You are a total hypocrite! The self-righteous whiff of the vegan reigns supreme with you. One cannot live on this planet without harming or killing for your food and fuel. To think otherwise is utterly delusional.
If you think your lifestyle is less intrusive to nature, I think you need to re-examine how many lives are lost through agriculture. bugs/rodents/birds/pesticides?
Hi Annette,
I noticed that you state that you are a vegan since birth, and was wondering if you would consider responding to my challenge posted below, which asks for a 3 day vegan meal plan for children that would fulfill all of their nutritional requirements. Thanks!
P.S. Organic agriculture is currently completely dependent on animal-based agriculture.
Both plants and animals are alive and capable of feeling pain. If plants don’t scream when you cut them because they don’t have vocal apparatus it doesn’t mean they don’t feel pain, it doesn’t mean they want to die. Trees drop their fruit with their babies (seeds) inside in order to propagate, not to satisfy your hunger. They know animals will eat them and spread the seeds. Do you plant the seeds of the fruit you have eaten? Fact is- you kill or let others kill every day so you can continue living. It is difficult to accept but to state otherwise is delusional and hypocritical. Open your eyes and be honest with yourself. Thank food on your plate for their sacrifice. And don’t think you are better than others because you don’t eat meat.
As per another post: Sentience is the ability to feel, perceive, or to experience subjectivity. Plants just don’t have the biology – brain/pain sensors/organs which enable them to see, hear, taste, etc. like animals do.
So because plants “sense” and “react” to the word around them in a different way than your simplistic mind can readily comprehend, that makes it OK for you to kill and eat them? Nice rationalization there buddy
PBS Nature: What Plants Talk About… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7MOe5clOtI
Annette, you my poor thing have never worked in a vegetable processing plant. Your delicious vegetables come chock full of rodents, reptiles, birds and insects that are killed, some gruesomely, in the mass harvesting of said vegetables. Threshers and other harvesting machines mangle the little creatures. Like someone else said some of us live in the real world, life does not exist without death. You have 1st world problems and have never had to scramble for sustenance. Be happy you live in this country where you can make up fantasies about food. Fantasies have no place in most of this world,
1. Let’s say you kill 10 animals (rodents, birds, etc) per kilogram of plant food. You need more plant food to feed livestock than to feed humans, therefore you kill even more little animals.
2. Just because animals used for dairy and meat exist only because of us, doesn’t mean that we should exploit them. Maybe it would be better for them not to ever live?
You may not agree with the way certain animals may be slaughtered but there are definitely humane ways of going about this task. Do your own research. Find a sustainable farm that practices the correct methods. This society is extremely lazy. All that most people want to do is roll out of bed and have everything prepared for them. Do the homework. Whether your meat is grass fed, pastured raised, organic or from the store butcher (hopefully, the first two would be your choice) you will get the proper nutrients needed. This of course depends on the bioavailability of the nutrients and proper digestion. (Digestion is so, so important.)
What you also need to understand here is that plants are alive too. All plants have a natural defense mechanism. They do not want to be eaten, by humans or by animals. When humans ingest plants (vegetables and fruits) they are ingesting many of the goitrins (goitrogens, thiocyanates, flavonoids (soy flavonoids and isoflavones, millet flavonoids and quercetin to name a few.) These are naturally occurring chemicals that disrupt the digestive system as well as normal thyroid function, pancreatic function, kidney function, etc. etc. Ruminant animals have 3 to 5 stomachs that assist in the digestion of these so called vegetable goitrins. We are not ruminant animals. We are omnivores, true, but we are mostly carnivores. Need I say more. Vegetables are important and provide us with beneficial nutrients (especially when cooked, soaked and fermented because here most of the goitrins can be removed, except for soy. Cooking, soaking and fermenting soy will never destroy the goitrogenic activity of soy isoflavones.)
After all that, the point that I am trying to make, is that when one continuously kills the plant, one disrupts the soil and life cycle of the plant and therefore one disrupts the food source of our ruminant animals. Animals need plants for nourishment and humans need animals for survival…There have been many studies on how man can survive on protein alone…to date there have been no studies of man surviving on only vegetables only.
Eat some pasture fed chicken (dark meat especially) or a grass fed burger seasoned to perfection – minus the bun of course. That is an entirely different topic of discussion. After all we are protein and without it we will incur malnutrition and tremendous nutrient deficiencies.
Perfectly stated Christina. Obviously people do not understand the laws of nature and how all the inhabitants of the earth play a crucial role in it.
Also, we must be weary of feeding into the industrial-agricultural machine. After all they are only concerned about profits, whether it be from genetically modified organisms or the prescription drugs that you will be taking to help rid yourself of the disease that has been inflicted. Sadly, the vegetarian/vegan lobbyists blindly support the overzealous production of crops( especially rice, soy,wheat, etc) resulting in the destruction of the soil.
Walter,
Around 80% of the soy and corn produced is fed to animals who are then slaughtered for consumption. In many poor nations, there food is bought to feed to animals leaving them starving. Animal agriculture is the single largest contributor to greenhouse gases, soil erosion, soil depletion, water pollution, and air pollution.
Grass-fed and other so-called healthy meats are even more destructive to the environment. More land is needed, more greenhouse gases produced, more water used, more soil erosion, and far less sustainable.
That assertion is not true. There are many biodynamic farms (like the kind run by Joel Salatin) that do not damage the environment in any way, shape, or form. Where did you get your information? Here is an organization dedicated to it that can explain why it is better for the environment to practice farming this way: https://www.biodynamics.com/biodynamics.html
http://blogs.reuters.com/environment/2010/04/08/grass-fed-beef-packs-a-punch-to-environment/
Plenty more info on the internet.
ALL forms of farming damage the environment in some way. At the very least, you are displacing wild life. However, animal agriculture is not sustainable. If everyone ate grass fed beef, we would need to cut down the rain forests at an even faster rate than we do now to create more grazing land. Yes, that is right, meat demand is the single largest cause of destruction of the rain forest.
The amount of plant-food is over 40 times the amount produce by grass-fed beef on the same size land.
Meat is in no way sustainable. Those claiming sustainable, healthy, or happy meat are the least sustainable. Yes, they are liars.
You have to ask yourself, is killing a sentient animal, starving the poor, and destroying the environment really worth a few moments of pleasure to eat something that will significantly increase your risk to all the major diseases? There is nothing in meat that cannot be better obtained from plant sources.
Oh, and I would google the author. There are a lot of bad reviews. I find it ironic that he talks about vegans being deficient in nutrients, but most of the reviews are him prescribing many very expensive supplements to his clients. I have been vegan for 9 years and I don’t take any supplements. I get all the vitamins I need from a plant-based, whole-foods diet.
He also thinks that nuts and seeds are THE highest source of magnesium and encourages magnesium supplements! Unfortunately people like him will always have a following, because when presented with a new, challenging idea, the vast majority of people will spend all of their time and energy defending their current beliefs and only a small handful embrace the idea as something serious to consider. The author clearly lies in the vast majority, and so do his followers. It is truly a shame that so few people experience the benefits of a whole food plant based diet. It really is a higher bar, and one hard to meet on the sort of diet promoted by this author.
I read an article on a vegan website linking to research that said vegans adapted to low input of B12 by recycling what they had very efficiently so it took about 20 years to develop B12 deficiency. With my genotype indicated a slightly increased risk of Parkinson, one great aunt who suffered from that disease and my father and his 2 sisters becoming demented, I’m not taking the chance, thanks.
All forms of human activity, particularly in the form of contemporary civilization, harms the environment in some way. Farming is just one of many practices that wreck our planet but practicing traditional agriculture and husbandry is far less damaging than factory farming, etc. No solution will really make a jot of difference given the overpopulation on this planet and the overconsumption in general by the privileged few.
Cappy- thank you. You are awesome. It bothers me so much that meat eaters got to try and tear us down. Seriously? Cause we have compassion for animals, and care about the environment? Everyone dies. You’re not getting out of it. I choose to be kind to the world around me as much as I can. And since I eat everyday, I choose to eat with compassion.
How many of these biodynamic farms do you think we would need to replace intensive farming for our growing population? What about in 50 or 100 years from now? Where will we find all this land? On another planet?
Cappy,
First and foremost, I do not support “factory farms” and secondly, you obviously did not read, let alone, comprehend anything Christina wrote. You seem to lack the understanding of basic biochemistry, the digestive system, and how nutrients are absorbed and utilized in the body(these subjects are insanely beyond the scope of these posted comments). Your comments pertaining to sustainable farming practices are ridiculously and grossly devoid of facts. Plowing and turning over vast acres of land exposes the soil to the elements of wind, sun, and rain to name a few. Too much exposure destroys the microorganisms and many other components rendering the soil depleted of its nutrients. The practice of adding manure and composted matter into the soil is one of the absolute best ways, if not the best, to enrich and give back desperately needed nutrients. Mono-cropping of our lands has devastated ecosystems. Take a look at what soy,rice,wheat and corn production alone has done to the environment in places like China, the Middle east, South america, etc. Hell, look what it has done here in the states. Nutrient deprived, dead soil is the result. Instead of embracing sustainable methods, chemical fertilizers and a host of pesticides and herbicides are administered. Do some research into the conservation methods of the Native American Indians, particularly those that inhabited parts of California. It is quite impressive. They embraced the symbiotic relationship between animals, plants, and humans. They understood natures cycle of life and consumed both plant and animal. Also, research the history of the “agricultural revolution”. You will find that the plow and sickle has caused countless wars( land grabbing), enslaved and displaced millions of people(and animals for that matter), and destroyed entire ecosystems. Every time “modern” diets and food items have been thrust upon traditional cultures, the outcome is always devastating. By the way, the lands being cleared in the Amazon region are for the corporate-industrial factory farms, but a larger percentage are being cleared for corn, soy, and sugar cane to name a few. I could go on but what is the point? I embrace the natural symbiotic relationship between plants, animals, and humans as it should be.
.
Walter, are you talking about permaculture? Where plants, animals, and humans all contribute to the environment and benefit from the land. That’s the way farming should be done always! Everyone benefits and nothing is exploited. Organic farming today, although it’s better than going the pesticide route, really only serves itself and doesn’t give back to the land. The whole system needs overhauling. I agree with the natural symbiotic relationship of all living creatures….we’re all connected. But I don’t think that this connectivity proves I should eat meat….I choose to live as non-harming as I can to get by.
Quote: “Grass-fed and other so-called healthy meats are even more destructive to the environment. More land is needed, more greenhouse gases produced, more water used, more soil erosion, and far less sustainable.”
You should come to BC and see how we grass-feed our cattle. Nothing you’re saying applies here.
I eat the best quality animal products I can afford, raised as humanely as possible, as locally as possible. I buy my beef from the guy who raised it and I catch my own wild salmon. My eggs are a store-bought brand but I’ve visited the farm that produces them.
The fact is, nothing we do to feed our species on a global scale is going to be completely sustainable any more. Agriculture allowed us to grossly overpopulate the planet. Veg*ns say there are so many people that eating meat is no longer an option. Their solution? Agriculture. *sigh*
Who’d have thought? Raising animals for grazing and meat consumption can actually restore grasslands and lower the effect of greenhouse gas emissions?
Yep.
Agreed Walter… I respect ALL life on this planet (including humans) and ALL life shares a common genome, animals AND plants.
Living requires recycling *life*.. there is no other way to sustain it, other than borrowing it for a time from another living thing (including humans)… I daresay I am being eaten alive by microbes as I type these words and let’s not forget that the bacteria in my gut outnumber the “human” cells in my body by a factor of 10 to 1!
If others choose to put some forms of life “higher” in importance based on something arbitrary like they have big cute eyes, or a face, or a mother, then I guess that is their choice — but to dress that up as science, or as rationale for health, or saving the planet is where they cross the line and start becoming barmy. I don’t share their views so don’t try to force it one me.
Do you honestly think that a cow is more important than an 1,000 year old giant sequoia??? Nonsense… just think of the mini-ecosystem living in the tree’s branches, let alone sustained by its roots, or the oxygen it produces, or the water it catches and slows down from becoming run-off etc.. etc…
Sure we humans need to clean up out act and become more respectful of ALL lifeforms (including ourselves), or we risk killing ourselves off… the planet will go on just fine without us.
And yes that includes working out (or rediscovering) sustainable ways of feeding ourselves (on borrowed life)…
In my world-view, that includes livestock and animal products; because I care about my own health, the health of my family and the health of the ecosystem which sustains us.
Going by this logic we shouldn’t put human life above apples and lemons and figs?
ALL life is important… we are all part of a interconnected web… an ecosystem.
Every day researchers find new connections hitherto unknown. Who is to say how important apples, lemons and figs (or something that feeds or otherwise interacts with them) are to human life?
What annoys me is the attitude I get from vegans that other animal’s lives are more important than humans… just so long as those other animals have faces, cute eyes and mothers of course… who cares about ants, worms, microbes and all those yucky things… ewww!
“What annoys me is the attitude I get from vegans that other animal’s lives are more important than humans” How so, because you think humans are sacrificing their health for the well-being of animals? I certainly have not sacrificed anything. My grandfather certainly didn’t either. He hadn’t touched animal products since the week he was diagnosed with liver cancer 25 years ago and was given 4 months to live. A whole- food plant based diet rid him of his cancer and allowed him to thrive for another 25 years before a car accident. HE certainly didn’t make any sacrifices for HIS health. And there are so so so many others.
And what was he eating for all those years prior to the “whole- food plant based diet”???
Is this trick question? Of course we should put human life above fruit.
Nature is objective. Nature doesn’t get offended when humans kill animals or plants for consumption, just as nature doesn’t get offended when a bear kills a salmon for a meal.
You’re projecting feelings upon a world which doesn’t care for them.
Thank you for totally craping on mother nature. Cycle of life. Life eats life. Guess what that plant has a desire for life too. You tout your view point as morally superior? All you are is afraid of your own death. Its a cycle get over it. The lion eats the gazelle. If he didn’t the gazelle would eat all the grasses and all the gazelle’s would die. Your position in NO way is morally superior. It is inferior.
Is anyone under the impression that animals not slaughtered for meat somehow find death in a peaceful pasture surrounded by flowers and rainbows? When animals die in nature, it’s not pretty. Usually involves being eaten alive or something more horrible…just a thought. I am absolutely against CAFO’s and other ways of raising meats in which the animals are not allowed to be animals during their life. But they all have to die sometime, right? Or am I missing something?
Humans all die too does that mean you want an execution date set up for you from the day you were born?
I started eating meat and fish again two years ago after being vegetarian for two decades. For a couple of years i’d had experienced cravings, for meat in particular, but i couldn’t get myself to eat it. Now though i can say that starting to eat meat and fish again was the single best decision i could have made. The way my health started improving after a couple of months, both physically as mentally, is ridiculous. I could never go back.
Thank you for this important article, Chris. It took a near hip break at 31 and the discovery that I had the bone density of a woman twice my age for me to finally give up veganism after 16 years. Once I put my biases aside and began researching the type of diet that would heal my body, I realized I needed more than the supplements I was taking as part of my therapy and transitioned from a two decades-long vegetarian diet to one that included fish, eggs, and eventually red meat. There was period of adjustment but I wish I had done it sooner. The vegan community, whatever its intentions, has done a great disservice to women (and especially those recovering from eating disorders, for which veganism is often a cover) by touting the diet’s (imagined) health benefits.
This myth has been so debunked over the years that it is almost alarming to hear it still be promulgated. Every study the world over proves that every culture with high dairy intact has the most issues with poor bone density. The intact of dairy actually forces the bones to leach calcium.
so wrong, so wrong. especially the last sentence is complete nonsense. go tell the masai that they have weak bones. there is more to none density, much more. vit D, calcium and especially vit K2! ever heard about that one?
.. my point on calcium and dairy are proven in many many unbiased studies the world over, should you decide to look.
Sunmer
Your post is just another inaccurate generalization. While vegetarian/veganism may not have been beneficial for you that does not mean you can assume it is not beneficial for some. Every human has different health issues to deal with and different genetic makeup. For me, going vegetarian is what saved my life. I have health conditions that put me in the E.R. up to 3 times a month and the week I went vegetarian that stopped. Even with my amazing results I do not think vegetarian/veganism is best for everyone. Each individual needs to find out what their body needs and adjust their diet accordingly. You have to know how to blend a proper menu to get all the nutrients you need as with any way of eating. If you do not pay close attention to what you are and are not getting from your food sources you can become deficient and do more harm than good. But this can be seen with all menu plans. My point is there is no one miracle way of eating that works for every person on this planet. Each individual needs to find what works best for them and strive to make sure their menu meets those needs.
I have met a few people lately that eat a low animal protein diet because of the research that animal protein increases the risk of cancers. Can you please show is some research that refutes that? Thank you!!
One can endlessly cherry-pick different studies to support ones preconceived conclusions. This is why in order to obtain a realistic view point I keep coming back to the longest running and most extensive dietary study extant. It is called human history. If the Vegan Way of Eating was at all proper and natural for humans should’nt we see many examples of it in nature? In fact the OPPOSITE is true. There are NO reproducing vegan cultures, one has never been observed.Man living in his most natural state,that of the Hunter Gatherer, gets on the average 2/3 of his calories from animal foods. . Some like the Masai, Inuit, and Plains Indians get/got almost %100 of their calories from animal sources. These populations were observed to be virtually free of modern degenerative diseases until they start eating modern foods, namely white flour,sugar and vegetable seed oils. If we look at the foods in the modern diet that in the last century that have increased along with the increases in modern diseases,we see the same culprits, refined carbohydrates and vegetable seed oils.
I think you completely misunderstand why you see no vegetarian diets in hunter gatherer societies. It is not due to nutrient deficiency, but caloric intake compared to caloric output.
It is a lot more calorie efficient to hunt just may than to gather would gains, fruits and vegetables. This is why hunter gatherers eat a primarily meat based diet. However as far as I’m aware nowadays we can do all our “gathering” in one convenient place called a supermarket. This is much more calorie efficient system, hence why we use it.
Tim, since hunter gatherers found it more efficient to hunt instead of gather their calories can we not then deduce that those essential nutrients derived from animal sources that made humans thrive are what we evolved to require?
I’m afraid that theory doesn’t hold water. They went to great lengths to obtain animal foods, often specific ones that are high in nutrients. In the extreme:
http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/cmasterjohn/2011/05/12/weston-price-looked-for-vegans-but-found-only-cannibals/
I come from a traditionally vegetarian (dairy) culture, and yes, much reproduction has happened!
But you dont come from a VEGAN culture.(There are none) Traditional lacto-ovo vegetarian societies get many of their calories from the saturated fats in whole milk products. It is curious that vegetarian India has some of the highest diabetes and heart disease rates in the world. Why? Perhaps substituting cheaper vegetable fats (inflammatory,carcinogenic) for ghee. Refined grains and sugars.
you nailed all three reasons in one sentence. congrats. not to mention most Indians look very very sickly. even the “healthy” ones. at least they did the last time I was there, which is less than a year ago.
“Einstein”.
You should post a picture of yourself so we can all get a good look at your appearance… then make a judgement on how it relates to your diet. Preferably next to one of those “sickly Indians” you encountered on your esteemed travels for comparison’s sake.
Hunter gatherers? You mean like the American male that hunts for bacon, roast beef and steak at the grocery store so he can sit on his fat ass on the couch and eat it while gathering his metabolic syndrome diseases?
The problem with Paleo (like Atkins) is that probably a very small proportion of people that claim to be on it are actually following it. I mean, who really is going to go out and buy extremely expensive grain fed meats or wild game? And, seriously, since people talk about what our ancestors did, who is actually going to take a spear and run around a forest for 3 days in order to kill a mesquite smoked honey glazed bacon beast and then drag it back 10 miles to the camp so that it can be shared by the tribe? All the while living on nothing but nuts and berries on the way.
I remember when Atkins came along and gave the green light to eat whatever high fat revolting piece of flesh you wanted to eat. Sure, he recommended leaner meats but nobody actually followed that recommendation. And he recommended vegetables but nobody followed that either.
Hey Deanna, a quick pubmed central search of “CLA cancer” returns over 2600 articles… CLA, as found at high levels in the fat of grassfed ruminants has shown great efficacy in fighting cancer
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/?term=CLA%20cancer
do your homework, don’t expect others to do it for you. you have google, right? those studies are crap, and there is a truckload of studies on the net that prove them wrong. just one question. ever since I got interested in nutrition and devote a lot of time studying it, I see a lot of vegans and vegetarians giving up this lifestyle once they get sick and turning to a paleoish diet (reintroducing some meats), after which they praise how good they feel again. but I have not seen any paleo acolate turned vegan. not one! doesn’t this reveal something?
I wholeheartedly that caution should be exercised with vegetarian/vegan diets. I was a vegetarian for twelve years with relative success but a two year switch to veganism seriously damaged my health: I was malnourished, eating mostly carbs and soy products. My blood pressure and blood sugar levels sky-rocketed and I was wracked with migraines and pelvic pain. Blood work also revealed I was deficient in several key vitamins and minerals. My doctor persuaded me to start eating fish and I slowly made the changeover to eating more traditionally/ancestrally. My health has improved tremendously.
A vegan or vegetarian diet consists of mostly veg and fruits. Soy and grains are not the predominent foods to either diet, and should be considered a side or treat.
I am a vegan and have successfully gotten all the necessary nutrients listed above through eating a variety of veg. I get my blood tested every year. And am in great health.
I have recently started taking B-12 because it is an easy way to ensure I get it, despite not needing it, via bacteria that produce the nutrient.
I just wanted to message that it is possible incase you wished to return to it. It does takes a passion for food and lots of fresh fruit, veg, nuts and seeds.
If your current diet suits you, all the best, and congratulations in finding what is right for your body.
Unless you do raw vegan, grains and soy are THE predominant staples of a modern vegan. Maybe in some vegan utopia, people would consume primarily veggies and fruits, but that’s not the reality of things.
I disagree. It’s like saying that McDonalds and Coca Cola are the staples of a normal western diet. For some – sure. But I still wouldn’t consider burger, fries and coke as staples.
I know plenty of vegans who omit soy completely and eat only gluten-free grains. Their staples are indeed vegetables, fruits, legumes, nuts, seeds and gluten-free grains like quinoa, buckwheat and sometimes brown rice. They are in great health and shape.
Humans are very variable concerning their nutrition. Otherwise it would be impossible to exist on an Inuit diet vs. a tropical diet. There are plenty of options for a healthy and wholesome diet, including a vegan one. If you chose unwisely and unhealthily, don’t blame it on the vegan diet. The only thing that should be substituted in my eyes is really B12, everything else you can get from an intelligent vegan diet.
Good luck, Isa, good luck.
We’ve heard many things, including the promise of Communist paradise.
I was a vegetarian for over 30 years, and indeed, grains and soy were my staples. I was never vegan, but due to main-stream fat phobia I avoided most dairy and eggs. Sure, I ate ( and still eat) about twice as many fruit and vegetable servings as the average, but really, it was all brown rice and seitan for me. The up-shot was a variety of severe deficiencies, Celiac, and diabetes. My vitamin D level was 0! Saying that a vegetarian diet is mostly fruit and vegetables is silly, the vast majority of American vegetarians eat grains, beans, and as many vegetables as they can afford. Nuts are too expensive for most to eat a substantial amount.
Sorry Anna, I was actually intending to respond to Isa.
Grains and soy were your staples? And seitan??? I wouldn’t touch that stuff with a ten foot pole- ever. It’s no wonder you didn’t succeed. Saying a vegetarian diet is mostly fruits and vegies is NOT silly at all. What’s silly is when people decide to ‘go vego’ and do it all so terribly wrong.
Most vegans I knew during my period of veganism whole-heartedly espoused tofu and seitan as a primary source of protein. I ate those things frequently. And since I couldn’t get satiated on fruits and veggies alone, I ate a lot of carbs: bread, rice, potatoes, etc. These are vegan staples and a fast track to bad health. Those of you who have been successful as vegans, I feel are in the minority. Of the 25 committed vegans I knew ten years ago, only one remains a vegan. The others are all eating meat and fish now due to nutritional imbalances. Ancedotal, yes but between their stories and mine, convincing enough.
As you can see from these comments regarding soy and grains, most people today don’t have a clue as to where our ideas around veganism and vegetarianism originate. Macrobiotics has influenced greatly the post-WW2 natural foods industry in America to the point we don’t even realize that before that food movement reached the USA foods like organic brown rice, tofu and seitan were unavailable. The pre-WW2 *health food* landscape was influenced by the Kellogg Brothers, not only the one who made cereal but his even more influential brother who operated the Battle Creek Sanitarium. Does anyone today still think corn flakes are healthy?
Anna, can we please keep this about trying to improve out health and not about your politics?
Oh, but food and health has everything to do with politics. And that this article is right has been recently confirmed by a study of the association between eating behavior and various health parameters at the Medical University Graz, Austria which found that vegetarian diet is associated with poorer health (higher incidences of cancer, allergies, and mental health disorders), a higher need for health care, and poorer quality of life.
This study is a joke. Oh, and btw, from the researchers behind the study: “We analyzed the data of 330 vegetarians. In detail, our vegetarian group comprised 25 pure vegetarians (vegan persons), 126 vegetarians consuming milk and eggs, and 179 vegetarians consuming fish and/or eggs and milk.”
So, basically, over half of what they termed as “vegetarian” are people that eat fish, eggs and dairy. So flawed….
I love it. The same source material, the same group of researchers and a completely different conclusion.
The study you site:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0088278
The antithesis of this conclusion:
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00508-013-0483-3
What an obnoxious reply. Are we to assume there’s no communist meat eaters? Guess you’ve never been to China.
How very unpleasant of you to attempt to keep this discussion on topic! FOR SHAME!
sarah, judging by your comment, it seems like your implying that the people a long time ago throughout the world were crypto-communists, like the Greeks, Romans and Joos just to name a few? what’s so “anti-western” about vegetarianism when people a long time ago, since the ancient past like in the Bible (for western audiences) people had conflicting opinions about what foods should be ideal to eat for humans?
I haven’t started a vegan diet but I try to follow a vegetarian diet as close as possible. Rarely do I eat meat. Only small portions or when mixed in with something when we are eating with others. I don’t think I eat 5 pounds of red meat a year unless it is fish. I do feel better and have been able to focus on eating more greens, veggies and healthy organic grains, nuts and legumes.
This was prompted by my doctor who informed me that it would make my weight loss efforts more successful. He was right. I’ve lost 32 pounds in the last two years. I do take the best vitamins I can find as well. I can’t help but think eating healthy is far superior to being over weight and taking cholesterol and blood pressure meds. Have you watched the movie (Forks Over Knives)? It is a straight forward scientific study that supports a vegetarian diet and the facts aren’t opinions. It’s probably the most life changing movie a person can watch!
Regarding the “Forks Over Knives” movie, please don’t believe everything you see or read as being the “one and only way”. That movie is riddled with misinformation.
Debra, your comment did not include one thing that you think is misinformation in “Forks over Knives”.
Debra, what kind of “misinformation” did you find in “Forks over Knives”.
This movie is completely science and researched based and based on the careers of two passionate men from medicine and science
Criticisms against the “science” in this movie is widely available.
Summarizing: The science methods are very biased, and ends up being pseudo-science. Several nutritionists debunked the myths spread by that movie.
Here’s some:
http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/09/22/forks-over-knives-is-the-science-legit-a-review-and-critique/
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/10/13/vegetarian-movie-forks-over-knives–critically-reviewed.aspx
Dude, you can’t defend an argument by supplying a link to that same person’s argument in a different location. And then a link to a “Doctor” that is again using the same English Major’s blog as some kind of proof. Seriously!
I am a vegan and do not eat soy so I am not sure where you get your information that a vegan must consume soy…
If you are talking about protein, grains, beans and lintels have ample protein not to mention the protein in vegetables. There are grains that are gluten free if that is what bothers you.
Where do you see anyone stating “that a vegan must consume soy” ..?
Is not meat eaters or former vegetarians or former vegans that make the claims of problems with the diet. Even the very own vegetarians report that they are unhealthy and feeling worst that people on other diets.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24516625
Moreover, our results showed that a vegetarian diet is associated with poorer health (higher incidences of cancer, allergies, and mental health disorders), a higher need for health care, and poorer quality of life. Therefore, public health programs are needed in order to reduce the health risk due to nutritional factors.
The last place I look for information is on a government site. Are you aware of how many decades the USDA gave food recommendations to the public only to support agricultural industries?
Studies I have seen say that vegetarians are healthy but after all the blah blah on this subject do you have evidence of any diet that reversed heart disease other that those famous for it like Ornish, Esselstyn or Fuhrman? If everyone else is so healthy why do the studies of dead soldiers during the Korean and Vietnam conflicts show so many clogged arteries of people around 20 years old?
I also disagree. In the bahamas where I live and practice, Most of my vegan patients are well educated and completely avoid all processed soy ( mostly due to price). They eat a variety of whole, nutrient dense food primarily, with the bulk of calories coming from nuts/seeds and root vegetables. We have a large Rastafarian population ( religious mostly vegan), and they are some of the healthiest patients I have. I’m always much More concerned if someone claims they eat “Normal Bahamian food” vs if hey claim they are they are vegan.
I think the GMO soy and corn really is what causes the problems for vegans…It is in everything and cannot be avoided 100% of the time(maybe in Cali)
My daughter is vegan. She eats a wide variety of vegetables, beans, grains, fruits and nuts. She hardly ever eats soy. If you do your research you can get everything you need in a vegetarian or vegan diet. Yes, there are unhealthy vegetarians/vegans but there a lot more unhealthy people who eat animal products.
You do not control what goes into your mouth? Seems to me if grains are so bad then not only vegans should be avoiding them but how do you explain the cultures that have done far better than average on grains?
Really? How did you decide that soy and grains must be part of a vegan diet? Anyway I do eat grains but I soak them for 24 hours along with nuts and seeds before cooking.
I would consume some soy if I could get natto or other fermented soy but I am not drinking soy milk.
Coconut milk is the next thing besides almond milk.
We have gone Vegan for health. We do eat fruits and vegetables as our main staples. Some whole grains/rice/rye as well [gluten free is not an issue for us]. We never eat Tofu (I hate the stuff as most people serve it) but will make fermented cheese and cream out of cashews. That’s an occasional thing.
As I said, we did it for health after a Type II Diabetes diagnoses along with high blood pressure, high cholesterol, high everything. 1 year and 60 pounds lighter, all blood work has normalized.
Prior to this, we were mostly eating meat and some veggies, and a lot of potatoes. And a huge amount of dairy (cheese mostly). We have never been much into sweets but did used to have a lot of ice cream binges. That dairy really is like crack. Our weight went up so high so fast because of our eating habits.
I think new vegans these days are doing it right. Focusing on the whole foods and veggies. If your focus is on health as opposed to animals, then you are likely going to make right choices.
I am still a bit surprised at how aggressive and hateful people who eat meat get whenever commenting on vegans. Even in my own family and with friends and work, people really get their hackles up. I don’t even have to say a word. There must be some psychological reason for this.
I think the reason they do that is because many vegans they find on the internet are crazy lunatics with an agenda who want to make it against the law to eat any animal products, so they generalize all vegans like that.
I am a vegan and personally know many others including my husband, mother, son and close friend, many other acquaintances and associates. All of us are in good health. We all eat different things. Yes I’ve had my blood tested – twice a year. I know not one person who ever turned away from veganism. If you do then you were on a plant based diet – this is different to veganism. A vegan does not eat for health, although everyone vegan know is healthy. A vegan chooses not to eat animals and their products for the same reason you choose not to eat your dog or cat or drink your dog or cat’s milk or make cheese out of it. We really are all the same. It’s just that once you are vegan you no longer discriminate. Therefore you no longer eat animals or their products. You learn the truth about health and you learn the sad truth about our culture of discrimination. Once vegan it is like a butterfly – the butterfly will never be a caterpillar again nor would it ever want to. But all of us are butterflies – kind and wonderful people. It’s just a matter of channeling that into everything, including the food we eat. Peace.
Thank you Janelle & others for chiming in. I’m not a vegan, however, I have many vegan friends who are thriving. I’ve run vegan experiments for 6 months eating fresh berries, ripe fruit, salads, steamed veggies, & some mineral/vitamin supplements & did quite well. It’s not my path, however, I cannot deny that people that really dig into the plant food path can flourish, like anything in life the total alchemy of the path needs to be considered. The vegans I have met that seem to be flourishing are usually fairly physically active, get sunshine, watch less t.v. & movies, take getting quality sleep seriously, take hydration seriously, don’t drink stimulants like coffee regularly or at all, & similar types of healthy habits. I’ve also encountered people on vegan/vegetarian paths who are not doing well & they usually eat lots of processed junk ‘health’ foods. My personal theory is that plant foods are lighter in energy, so a person’s body built from only plant foods will become lighter & more sensitive in form & receptivity. If such a person also adapts their total lifestyle & habits to be in harmony with this lighter body, then perhaps there are greater conditions present to flourish with radiant health. If a person lives like most people in the modern age racing around & stuffing their body & mind with processed food & garbage stimulants & overly stimulating media, perhaps this will be taxing & exhausting to the lighter body. It’s not my path, as I eat some animal foods, however, as a person deeply involved in natural healing & learning about the radiant possibilities of the plant world, I feel that I’ve seen plenty of evidence that the vegan path can work if people fully respect & harmonize their lifestyles & habits with the body they are building. For many people, the more hunter/gatherer wider diet including animal foods may be better suited for them & their lifestyle. I respect everyone’s paths & critiques on this aspect of human life. <3 & best healing wishes always
“My personal theory is that plant foods are lighter in energy, so a person’s body built from only plant foods will become lighter & more sensitive in form & receptivity.”
Thank you for sharing your theory. Unfortunately, it there is no empirical evidence that it has any validity, and plenty of empirical evidence that many of those who follow such wishful thinking suffer damage to their health.
“plant foods are lighter in energy, so a person’s body built from only plant foods will become lighter & more sensitive in form & receptivity.”
indeed, too light in energy, i got hungry + cold in 2 hours after a vegan meal. & i become very sensitive & receptive to cold temperature.
regards,
What a good balanced approach. I am 78 and very healthy and well (? good ancestral genes, see my soon to be 100 Aunt.). I have been very interested in healthy living since my teens. No health food shops then. I think that unless a vegetarian is VERY well educated about nutrition or living in some place where everyone has available good quality, well grown food it is very difficult to be healthy. It is also easy to be unhealthy on a modern processed refined carb rich diet. We have massive advertising campaigns giving dis information so need to be personally aware.
Janelle,
Do your blood tests include B12, calcium, iron, zinc, EPA & DHA, vitamin A & D?
Is your B12 test a test for holotranscobalamin?
http://chriskresser.com/what-everyone-especially-vegetarians-should-know-about-b12-deficiency
Even if you eat a whole foods, plant based diet (and not tons of soy, grains, meat analogues, etc.) heavy supplementation is still required, as mentioned in the article. DHA, retinol and B12 only come from animal products, and other nutrients like iron are difficult to obtain from plants. I think eating lots of plants should be the basis of any diet, but certain micronutrients are only available from animal products or supplements. You can “think” you can get all nutrients from plants, but the science doesn’t support that unfortunately.
This is a load of crap. Most people with vitamine B12 deficiency are animal eaters.
My personal experience is that on a vegetarian diet I was B12 deficient. However, after changing to a vegan diet the deficiency went away. Without supplements.
I have to agree. I’d been a vegetarian for 18 years and vegan for about a year now. When I started the vegan diet I also started taking vitamin supplements. My doctor told to me to save my money on the B12, that I didn’t need it.
Algae has DHA and some eggs do also (From chickens fed DHA foods), most nut milks are fortified with B-12 as is nutritional yeast and probiotics, retinol from what I understand is created naturally when you eat foods rich in vitamin A, and consuming too much retinol in it’s active form (from meat.) is believed to increase the chances of getting osteoporosis. The important thing is to really learn how to be healthy if you become vegetarian or vegan. Some people do fall into the “junk food vegetarian”. This is because of lack of knowledge. If you want to continue to eat meat and get healthier, simply reduce your meat intake to several times a week, or have smaller portions. Fill up on the plant based foods. So what I do is I eat more then half of my calorie intake in non-starchy veggies (at least 8 servings a day), fruit is about 3 or 4 servings, same beans and legumes I do 2 or 3, same with nuts or seeds or avocado, grains, and starchy veggies I eat less then 2 times a day, I eat a egg or dairy product once or twice a day, then have a clean and lean meat option twice a week or less. No processed meats or grains. (These are the things that really get you, especially all that corn. Almost all processed foods have a whole lot of corn!) I was very sick before I started eating this way. I was borderline diabetic, was lethargic most of the time, and had high blood pressure. Now I do not, and I have slimmed down which is the super awesome bonus!
Sorry, for the typos, my keyboard likes to hiccup. Wonk Wonk.
Seems like a sensible approach to taking good care of yourself
Thank you Frank. I learned a lot of this from different places. I think it is also important to remember that everyone’s body is going to react differently to different diets. So what might work for me may not work for another person. Genetics play a part in this, too.
It is not true that DHA and B12 come only from animals; we produce B12 mainly in our intestine and in the mouth. Cows being some of the best producers of B12 actually eat grass as we know; with a proper balanced diet (eating fruits and veg, grains, legumes, seeds and avoiding refined or processed foods while focusing on whole foods) you can only produce B12 and DHA by yourself. DHA just needs a good nutritious diet for your body to produce it. Many when they change their diet focus more on removing certain foods more than on adding, this will lead to lack and a plant base diet will be blamed, but the problem is with the person. Also one must learn to cook vegetables in a proper way that will avoid the losing of nutrients to too much heat (over cooking) or water (e.g. in the case of boiling). Going raw only will lead to problems as some veg need heat to release all their benefits. There is more that can be mentioned that one must take into account. Oh and as an example, veggies rich in iron will give you more iron than meat, as your body will absorb the iron far much better with the help of vitamin C food. meat may seem to have more, but our bodies cannot breakdown the meet properly. God created us as plant eaters (Genesis 1:29), but after the flood in Noah’s day the vegetation was flooded, hence He allowed the eating of flesh (Genesis 9:2-3). When God called the children of Israel, He sort to restore to them a proper diet by removing flesh from their food (Deuteronomy 8 and Exodus 16), but since they lusted after flesh, He gave them flesh and He gave guide as to what may be safe to eat (Leviticus 11), but He also mentioned that in the future He wound allow sickness even in the animal kingdom due to the increase of sin (Hosea 4:1-3). The plant base diet was the perfect diet that was not merely limited to longevity, but had to do with a health mind that we would be able to understand God (Deuteronomy 8). Flesh eating continued but from the late 1800s things changed and diseases increased in proportion to the increase of sin, and are worse today. Do you know they never found the cure for mad cow disease? It is like a time bomb waiting to happen, but like I said longevity is just a fringe benefit, you could die any time, but have you examined your ways?
Soy products and veg patties should not be a permanent feature in your diet, but if you take them, take care that they do not dominate your meals. For the poor, lets advice good choices within reach, we cannot prescribe an exact diet for everyone… you might kill the poor person.
Let us all learn more, and eat well
B12 comes from the biological activity of microbes in the soil. Virtually all other areas that produce a variant are NOT enough for our sustenance.
Actually, Vitamin A has a Vitamin K2-sparing action. It limits the production of MGP (its role is to sweep calcium out of soft tisues like arteries). MGP, like osteocalcin, requires Vitamin K2 to bind to calcium, so by reducing the production of MGP, Vitamin A does damage control reduces the need for Vitamin K2. The problem is that when you eat too much Vitamin A without Vitamin D, you have spared K2 too much so it causes problems because you need K2. Vitamin D obviously increases production of MGP (the exact opposite effect) so a minimum amount prevents Vitamin A toxicity.
Osteoporosis is caused by Vitamin K2 deficiency because the proteins like osteocalcin and MGP can’t bind to calcium and do their job.
I whole heartedly stand up for a plant based diet. I have been a vegan for over 3 years. Everytime I get my labs done they are great. My cholesterol levels are supremely including my hdl levels that some people may say I can’t get without animal products. My b12 levels have been incredible. Same with iron, calcium, and protein.
I have sat down with registered dietitians and they have said I am an A+ model for supreme health. I am extremely active and have never had any issues.
yes, it is difficult. I have to be diligent about my diet. I don’t love off of salads and fake soy products. I almost never consume soy. But I truly believe plant based diets are perfectly safe as long as you eat the way you should.
Again did you read the article? So funny you think you can intellectualize yourself into overcoming your genes. Your just more efficient at making up for a deficient diet. The birds will come home to roost.
It’s a little funny, as well as pathetic that you have such a bone to pick (no pun intended) with the fact that someone is doing well on a plant-based diet. That really gets under your skin huh? Here’s what you sound like ~ “There’s no way she could be correct, because I said so. My ego is so attached to my own diet that differs from hers that to hear that she’s doing well on it, is a personal attack that cannot be tolerated!” Here’s a crazy idea, get your nose out of other peoples’ diets, and perhaps learn not to root for someone else’s failure. But of course, you gotta have a little empathy, and you test results just came back, turns out you’re very deficient.
The comment was not at all derogatory or against the author or her diet in ANY way. The person is just trying to say that the vegan diet that she has been following, has been working marvelously well for her which is in contradiction to this article. I get it that your not smart enough to understand other people and their choices but just Do us all a favor, stick this ‘vegan being a deficient diet’ up your ass and stop being a bitch about any other person trying to voice their opinions.
All the folk bashing of the plant based diet should review the years long studies of 7th day Adventists who for more than 100 yrs have encouraged their members to live a vegan, hydrated sleep filled, faith based lifestyle. Plant based foods is the original diet from Eden. Since man decided to mess with the genes of plants our food sources have been compromised. We may do well to made more noise about that than count on science study which is often sponsored by some special interest group to support positions.
Visit wesites such as Weimar Institute, Wildwood Lifestyle in GA, Eden Valley Lifestyle in CO for more info that is based on real results from real people whose lives have been recreated from plant based lifestyle that is more than just plants.
The Adventist also abstain from smoking and other unhealthy habits so this falls under the “healthy user bias” mentioned. You can google articles about meat eating Mormons who follow similar lifestyle practices and actually have been shown to live 4-7 years longer than the Adventist. Plus as a population Adventist have higher incidents of certain types of cancer then the rest of the population and lower incidences in others possibly related to the vegetarian diet and higher incidents of thyroid issues probably from high soy consumption. It is never as black and white as we would like it to be. I think stress more than diet affects our health more than anything else. Plus the Adventist I know are not Vegan but vegetarian they eat a lot of dairy and eggs and soy products.
Just a correction, Seventh Day Adventists generally are vegetarians, not vegans.
As a member of the Adventist church, I can attest to the fact that many aren’t vegetarian either. I am not. The reason for vegetarianism is that in the late 1800’s it was the cutting edge diet in “sanitariums” that promoted health. You will see that the Mormons have a similar health message in regards to alcohol/tobacco/caffeine and limited meat, as that church formed in the same time period. The principle of the time (and today) by both churches was to live as healthy as possible so that you could do God’s work and live a healthy life. The problem with it today is folks aren’t sticking with the principle and adjusting their knowledge of nutrition but just sticking with the same ol same ol. I won’t touch the fake meats, or do I frequent potlucks which is often flour, cheese, and dessert.
Janet is spot on about the study, and the article talks about it also, that there are just to many variables to a healthy lifestyle to pin it on diet. I liked how the article discusses the genetic aspect as well…many can go years feeling incredibly healthy as a vegan or vegetarian before noticing issues, and some notice it right away. There are really so many variables.
Unfortunately, both usual die early. From boredem.
kaytee, the author of this article is probably an atheist, and certainly subscribes to an evolutionary world view, so it is useless to point out that “plant based foods is the original diet from Eden”. However, for those who claim to subscribe to a Biblical world view, a vegan diet is not only the diet given to us directly by our Creator, but it will be the diet of the coming kingdom for eternity.
Loma Linda, CA (with it’s high percentage of Seventh-day Adventist population) is one of only 5 or so “blue zones” in the world, where there is a high number of centenarians. Apostate Adventists who eat meat can naysay all they want, and vegetarian Adventists who consume high amounts of dairy and eggs would do themselves a favor and read the writings of Ellen White, or at least read The China Study or watch Forks Over Knives.
Oh Noes!!!
You mean to say that the author of this article Chris Kesser, might actually be rational human who does not blindly believe in supernatural magic-stuff?!?
Personally I would take such an “accusation” as a compliment… I just wish the rest of the world were like that, then maybe we could start to mature as a species, instead of so many basing their beliefs on bronze-age books
Sorry Chris KRESSER … damn these stubby, primate digits
JLA, regarding your claim that a vegan diet is the diet given to us directly by our Creator, I urge you to read Acts 11:1-9. In that passage God authorizes the eating of all sorts of animals.
That was after the flood
The term “plant-based diet” is very disingenuous. Call it what it is – vegetarian or vegan.
I actually eat what could be called a plant-based diet. The majority of my intake is plants of some sort, with moderate amounts of meats, eggs, and fats. That is a more genuine use of the term.
Good call Rich. I think most people eating a paleo diet are indeed eating a plant-based diet. I just happen to include lots of animal products in my plant-based diet.
I would also add that anyone switching from a SAD to a veg*an diet will probably feel like they’ve made the greatest change in the world. That doesn’t mean it’s optimal, just better. Kind of like switching from white bread to whole wheat…better, but still not optimal.
I say the same thing about going from SAD to Paleo.
I went from SAD to Atkins (this was before paleo became a buzz word), lost some weight but felt dizzy during my work outs. My blood levels were all over the place, especially my cholesterol levels, which went through the roof. On the advice of my doctor, I then tried a vegan diet. All my blood levels returned to normal I lost a lot of fat and gained lots of muscle. I’ve been on that diet for over 15 years and feel like I’m doing pretty well for someone in their mid fifties. I only supplement B12 and D2 in the winter months. My B12 levels have always been good. My insurance doesn’t cover the test for D, but my wife’s levels are good. (apparently post menopausal women are covered under insurance).
Atkins and Paleo are not even remotely the same thing.
It’s not disingenuous; it’s a way to distinguished between people who avoid animal products for ethical reasons (vegans) versus people who do not eat animal products (plant-based diet).
Quite to the contrary, actually.
No one was confused about the terms vegan and vegetarian. Plant-based started gaining traction due to the negative connotations of being ‘vegan’.
Plant-based and plant-exclusive are different things. I will say again that my diet is plant-based and includes animal products. I use the term properly. Someone who excludes all animal products is not plant-based. They have a diet of plants. Period.
The average time for B12 that is stored in the liver to be depleted is five years. It’s just a matter of time.
I don’t see why Paleo/meat eaters hold on to one nutrient as a reason to eat animals in today’s modern society (reductionist theory/research). Today, taking a B12 supplement is easy and extremely cheap – we don’t need much. Meat is expensive and vast majority in our culture – factory farmed. Meat eaters also are encouraged to take other types of supplements by Chris himself. So while I am on the fence – this doesn’t move me.
If you dont see, then you know very little yet and have a long way to go before you do. Dont stop learning. I keep my fingers crossed for you, and for all the vegans and vegeterians out there.
^^^ And Einstein was vegetarian! Just sayin…!
…for the last year of his life… just sayin’!
Einstein, I’ll bet it really gets under your skin to hear that a Vegan/Vegetarian is doing alright on their diet huh? Really burns you up? Try disassociating your ego from your diet and you might not be so angry about what other people choose to do with their own lives? Being an intolerant egomaniac doesn’t have a great track-record in history, you might do some light reading some day on totalitarianism. Anyway, I think it might possibly be YOU that has a little ways to go and sadly in much more than intellect.
Since bacteria are living creatures just like animals and they are the source of b12 supplements (because ultimately, we have to have animals or animal-like creatures make b12 for us), it seems more sensible to go the route of doing the least harm and get b12 from the most efficient source possible. While researching various b12 sources, I discovered that eating 2 servings of clams per month is enough to completely satisfy this requirement. Since many vegans are vegan based on their desire to do no harm and inflict no pain or suffering, clams would be the way to go. They are about as intelligent and social as bacteria. For those who assert that intelligence/pain don’t matter and it is the sanctity of life that must be respected, it should be remembered that bacteria and plants are alive as well. Therefore, optimizing the intake of b12 can be achieved by consuming the most b12-dense “animal” (bivalve) in the world: clams. They filter our water and act symbiotically in aquatic ecosystems, so even farming them is beneficial to every organism involved.
If you have to supplement your diet with vitamins/minerals/extras, you’re likely eating the wrong foods.
How many animals have you seen in the wild taking supplements?
I’ve been a vegan for over 20 years, have had regular bloodwork done. Have never been deficient in anything, apart from iron levels have been a little low directly after childbirth. B12 has always been high normal. I have had occasionally low vit d, but that’s normal for someone who spends a lot of time indoors in the winter in this part of the world. I’m raising two vegan children who are both flourishing. My eldest is the top of her class and very able. Neither is frequently ill. It works if you eat well. Most people don’t eat well.
Well great for you and your kids.. seems that your gamble with their development and long-term health is working out so far.
I don’t think there is disagreement that it is possible to source everything you need from just plants — after all we are opportunistic omnivores — but as you say yourself “Most people don’t eat well” and I keep seeing this same idea repeated here.. anyone who “fails” as a veg*an didn’t do it right!
Why is it so darn difficult?!?
When did it get so complicated to eat that we need a degree in nutritional science in order to nourish our bodies?
Same goes for the people promoting any diet, including the Paleo diet. Why is it so hard to work out what to eat and then do it?
It’s hard because “we” (people here) have a scientific mind and we’re attempting to optimise our diets. For people who really don’t feel they need to optimise everything down to the last molecule, they chose a lifestyle and then live that way. Some do it with junk food and die early, some eat and live well and live long. Some from either camp have genes that will get them through or hurt them early.
It’s not hard raising children vegan (My wife and I do it) if you do the basics, just like most meat eaters do. If you want to go that step further then no matter what diet you follow, it’s going to take more effort.
Or put it another way… all these “most” people (including veg*ans?) who you say “don’t eat well”… do you think this they should be raising their children as veg*ans?
I’m guessing you’re fairly young. Many of these deficiencies will show up later as you become less efficient at overcoming them. BTW, lower cholesterol numbers are not necessarily better.
Hi Katie,
thank you for your contribution.
I am considering to switch from vegetarian to vegan. would it be possible to give me an example of your diet?
I have added linseed, almonds, sunflower seeds, sesame seeds in my daily diet in a good amount, in addition to vegetables, fruits, legumes and brown rice.
did you supplement with b12, vitamin d, or zinc your diet.
thank you in advance!!!
I am curious why someone would even become vegetarian or vegan?
I normally hear two reasons; a) to be healthier b) they are an animal lover/ killing animals is wrong etc
In the case of ‘A’, just do your research. A Diet filled with quality meat (not processed crap), fruits & veggies, some dairy products, nuts & seeds, and gluten-free grains like rice is going to suit humans in general best. Play around with the ratios of everything and find what works for you.
In the case of ‘B’, yes modern day farming can be pretty disgusting, but if it really bothers you then get your meat from a farm that treats the animals the way you want, or care for the animals yourself. To say that humans shouldn’t kill animals for food/materials goes against history and nature. The way we treat animals (livestock) in modern society is really bad, but my diet still contain meat for the health benefits.
Thoughts?
Clinical care: not just preventing, not just slowing, but truly reversing the number #1 killer of men and women – coronary artery disease = heart attack – remarkable, unheard of and clearly documented via imaging.
I have talked with patients whose lives have been changed dramatically. I am not talking a micronutrient here or there – but pain to no pain (angina), stents placed to live every month/CPR to revive to no stents and no CPR, out of wheelchairs to quality of life, etc.
One place to see the images is here, only if you are interested: http://www.heartattackproof.com/resolving_cade.htm
http://www.heartattackproof.com/study02_methods.htm
“Participants were asked to adhere to a diet that derived less than 10% of its calories from fat. They were to avoid oils, meat, fish, fowl, and dairy products, except for skim milk and nonfat yogurt. ”
“Each participant also received an individualized prescription for a cholesterol-lowering drug. The most frequent regimen included cholestyramine, 4 g twice daily, and lovastarin, 40 mg to 60 mg daily. Time-release niacin was prescribed for a short while but was discontinued when many patients reported nausea, vomiting, and swollen ankles.”
Were the patients ever taken off statins?
How much of the reduction in TC was due to diet or due to the drugs?
http://www.heartattackproof.com/reversal01.htm
Look at Table 3
High Trigs usually indicate small LDL-P which are very bad.
yeah, that sounds like the experiment where the evil professor wanted to finish off all the participants. killer approach, really…
Ignore the questions – the fact is ALL of the patients were given drugs and the good doctor never states if the patients were ever taken off the meds!
Were the patients ever taken off statins?
How much of the reduction in TC was due to diet or due to the drugs?
My understanding – these patients were very sick heart patients and often in pain so i bet they were already on a cholesterol lowering pills. From the little i know, this would be very common. So I don’t think the pills they were still on or not are a concern – that fact that the arteries opened was/is remarkable – i don’t think I can find fault with the results and health these people gained.
I changed to a vegan lifestyle when I was constantly sick.
Every time after eating a meat product (even eggs or cheese) I would have severe stomach upset and headaches…not to mention the lack of energy b/c my body was busy trying to break down the animal product I just consumed.
Every month I was sick…I could set a calendar to it…cold sores would cover the inside of my mouth, my temp was up to 103 and I couldn’t eat for days…and this lasted for 3 days each month…doctors couldn’t figure it out, just wanted to medicate me…I said no and went on my own journey to use food as my medication.
I use a lot of soaked nuts (almonds, cashews, macadamia) for meals and chickpeas/sweet potatoes as my base for my “faux burgers”….love hemp seed and add it anywhere I can (btw…it’s a perfect protein…has EVERYTHING the body requires and is even the closest resemblance to human DNA…)
Highly suggest Brendan Brazier’s books…Thrive Diet, Foods to Thrive and his new book Thrive Cookbook…..reading this changed my outlook on how the body really uses food as fuel, and how it’s WE that use food as emotion, comfort etc…
Since changing to vegan I’ve had more energy, more mental clarity then I’ve EVER had with a meat based diet.
I’ve never touched (and never will) soy, and I’m not a big fan of legumes…
If you’re a true vegan why do you feel a need to eat “faux” burgers??
Dumb answer Charles….I call them “faux burgers”…I don’t buy the prepackaged soy based ones in the freezer…I MAKE them. You ass
Why? If teh ode aof eating meat is so abhorrent then why on earth make a burger substitute? Is your imagination, or your knowledge of the incredibly vast range of edible foods (and the ways they can be prepared) on this planet really so limited?
As someone who keeps trying to use science to promote your diet, relying on strawman arguments makes you look desperate.
Why? If the idea of eating meat is so abhorrent to you, then why on earth make a burger substitute? Is your imagination, or your knowledge of the incredibly vast range of edible foods (and the ways they can be prepared) on this planet really so limited?
No…it’s just an easier way when out camping with my family to make, store and prepare my food…is that ok with you?
By all means ..
Feel free to rationalise your own decisions as suits you.
You are nothing but a troll on here….trying to piss people off….
I’m happy, healthy and vegan…so suck it.
I think the idea that a burger has to be made from one thing. I always thought of it as a generalized thing. There are meat burgers, nut burgers, mushroom burgers, bean burgers. It’s just something to describe a formed substance to put in a sandwich.
You mean like how “bacon” doesn’t need to be made out of pig?
FrankG you have too much time on your hands, buddy. Go out and preach to the world about the bad Vegans and non-meaters. Looks like you don’t have a job, otherwise.
Also, a black bean “burger” is just a sandwich. It’s not trying to be a hamburger. I don’t know why they are called burgers. Do you think a cheese sandwich is a meat substitute? A sandwich is a sandwich.
your body was trying to break down meat? meat is one of the few things we have enzymes to digest. it is vegetables and fruits we need bacteria to help us digest them in the bowel. who knows what kind of junk meat you were eating to evoke your stomach problems. red slime burgers perhaps. nobody ever got stomach trouble fm grass fed beef. EVER!
I agree…I grew up on a dairy farm and our freezer was stocked full of beef…..but the beef I had growing up is not the beef you can purchase now at the grocery store (which is where I was buying it)
Unfortunately, farming has become more about how much to get out at a little cost to the producer…..since I’ve switched to vegan, my husband and children still consume meat, but now we go to a beef farmer and purchase half a cow, so we know what kind of meat is in the freezer.
…and yes, the body does have to break down meat in order to digest it…no different than anything else….use your head, or change your name.
of course the body needs energy for digestion. but its amount is hugely overrated. it provides much more energy than is needed for its digestion. which is not true for vegetables. their digestion costs more energy than they provide. and energy expenditure for digestion has nothing to do with stomach upset, whatsoever. you need to read better before rushing to answer.
There’s no rush to answer…I think you may be miselad…leafy greens and colourful veggies deliver energy by way of conservation instead of consumption….meaning….as soon as we eat something (anything) the body starts spending digestive energy to convert the energy stored within food (aka calories) into useable sustenance to meet the body’s biological requirements……whenever energy is transferred from one form or another, there is some loss of energy….however, it depends on what you eat as the process varies greatly based on what is eaten.
Digestion is the body using energy….it’s no coincidence that the cultures that have the largest meals at lunch also enjoy and participate in afternoon siestas…
Natual, unrefined whole foods require less energy to digest….therefore GAINING more usable energy when eating foods in a natural whole state (even if they have fewer calories as veggies, seeds, nuts, and fruit do compared to meat)
Plant based is also better internally for your body as it produces an alkaline environment within the body…if the body is too acidic (which comes from meat sourced meals) it affects our health at the cellular level immediately with inflammation and cellular death….as well, people with a low body pH are prone to illness and fatigue (that was something that I was experiencing with a meat based diet)….acidic enviornment in the body over time causes the immune system to fail and falter, opening the door to more extreme illnesses.
For me, switching to a plant based diet helped eliminate the issues that I was dealing with health wise (and I wasn’t eating poorly to begin with…just meat at almost every meal)….I’m not saying vegan is the ONLY way to go…it’s just the way to go for me….it’s you that is shaming those for choosing it.
Are you saying that only energy counts? That somehow we nourish our bodies with calories?
“[Natural], unrefined whole foods require less energy to digest”
Are you saying that chewing raw sugar-cane is a more efficient way to raise my blood glucose than by drinking a can of soda?
“…if the body is too acidic (which comes from meat sourced meals) it affects our health at the cellular level immediately with inflammation and cellular death….”
Are you saying that my meat-based diet is somehow actually killing me… despite the fact that every one of my health markers as measured in a lab, has improved (including my teeth, gums and hair) and I rarely even get a cold these days?
Yes I realise that you ended your speech with the caveat “….I’m not saying vegan is the ONLY way to go…it’s just the way to go for me….”
but you made no such distinction in your generalised earlier points.
Frank..you honestly need to use your head….maybe you need more veggies in your diet to clear help form clear thoughts….
Chewing on raw sugar cane and drinking a can of pop will do the same thing to your body…come on…be smart, not smart-assed…..the body takes sugar as sugar, no matter the source…for me, I’d rather the more natural source then one that is bleached and altered in a lab (think Aspartame and such)…..but I don’t have a lot of sugar in my diet (and in regards to fruit…I don’t consume more than necessary..)
My body digests plant based protein better than meat based protein…plain and simple…..actually I think it’s the quality of meat that is out there that has created MY issues over time.
By plant protein I mean hemp seeds, pumpkin seeds, quinoa, sweet potato (yes, there’s protein there) and chickpeas….
It works for me, but I don’t need YOUR approval.
jennym, you are so wrong, so wrong. the acid alkaline myth and a lot of sensless generalisations too. i wouldn’t know where to start to put you straight, so I’ll leave it at that. good luck to you.
So you call me a troll jennym.. tell me to “suck it”and then expect to continue rational discussion? LOL Including additional comments regarding my mental state?
LOL
It seems that YOU are the one who is confused and in need of decent nutrition… I was NOT questioning whether raw sugar-cane or soda were better quality foods but using them as examples to counter your statement … “[Natural], unrefined whole foods require less energy to digest”
Clearly your statement is nonsense… just like most of the verbiage you have written so far.
Jenny I’m afraid you won’t get far arguing with these people. They are absolutely enraged by the sheer thought that you could be a vegan and healthy. I have no idea why but they seem to be taking what you choose to do with your own life as an it as an attack on their own. It’s actually quite frightening, and the only thing I could imagine that it would be is their own underlying guilt for knowing that they continue to kill living things when they don’t have to. They perhaps haven’t come to terms with this repression and sort of continue the denial by pushing hard against anyone who seems to succeed without such brutality. Perhaps they will understand one day, but sometimes I wonder if there are people who simply lack any idea of empathy. We eat meat because we have the guns and we can, plain and simple. If we didn’t we would be foraging for berries, nuts/seeds, plants and the rare treat of an already dead animal, like our ancestors more likely did.
It’s kind of funny in a morbid way though how in 50 years time most of the world will probably be vegan anyway, not by choice, but because of the goon heads today that have no concern with how they get their food or what impact it has on their world.
Ahhh Einstein, we would be so blessed if you only knew half of what you think you do. Some of your comments are ready for comic books!
You guarantee that grass-fed beef is nothing but healthy? You are the one that needs to read some research that has been done on cultures that are healthy and live to an old age then see what they eat on a daily basis….there are none that are big meat-eaters but there are some that are vegan or near-vegan like in Okinawa where for decades they sustained themselves on mostly sweet potatoes.
Vegetables take more energy to consume than they produce? Which comic book did you lift that quote from? Stop eating meat for three months and see if your body produces the enzymes you are fond of.
How do you justify the very recent research that shows if you stop eating meat for as little as 24 hours and consume whole plant-based foods the bacteria in your gut reverts to a much healthier group than meat-eaters have in their guts?
Ahhh research, who needs it when we have people like Chris and Einstein to tell us what to eat?
Having tried the strict vegan diet for over a year, I have some input for you. My girlfriend, my daughter and I all did it for different reasons. I did it because I saw evidence that it would greatly reduce the chances of recurrences and complications (i.e. cancer) from my chronic illness. My girlfriend was trying ANYTHING to cure her migraines (the vegan diet didn’t work, as expected, but she felt better for it). My daughter wanted to be healthier and stay skinny (she feels great and stunningly fits into her old jeans).
First, I’d like to point out nutritionfacts.org to anyone wanting more information on studies that support the health benefits of a plant-based diet. No doubt, this guy has an agenda, but it seems to be protecting your health as much or more than saving the animals of the world, and he backs his findings up with references to actual clinical studies, not a lot of psuedo-science of the kind I’ve seen from the likes of Mark Sisson or “I think”s like the author of this article provides. Don’t get me wrong, I thank the author of this article for his efforts to inform me, but I’ll go with clinical studies over “I think . . .” any day.
Secondly, it was an interesting journey, being a strict vegan for over a year. It was easier than I thought, with help from the two most influential people in my life and a work-at-home job. More interesting was the mental journey. When folks used to talk about inhumane treatment of animals in commercial food production, I didn’t let it into my head. That would have created too much cognitive dissonance, I guess. Living the vegan life made it okay for me to give credence to the “crazies” and the things they spouted. Not that I’ve made a complete transformation, but they don’t seem so crazy now – most of them anyway. What seems more crazy is the SAD and the many outright lies that give it credence in our society (e.g. the food pyramid decided with great influence from the food-producing industry that profits from, for instance, all of those eggs we eat).
Now, most of my meals are vegan. I think I feel a little stronger when I eat meat a couple of times a week and don’t worry so much about the things my diet might be missing, and it’s not like I’m breaking an oath to eat a plate of enchiladas occasionally. I’m fighting chronic inflammation, which, for me, has convincingly implicated as a supporting factor in almost every major diseaseAfter MUCH reading, I’m convinced animal products come with a substantial cost in reduced long-term well being, if not entirely, then at least at the level of consumption we’ve come to see as normal. Also, I’m doing much better on an almost entirely well-chosen plant-based diet.
I realize animal products were part of what enabled our species to succeed evolutionarily to our current place in the world and would not contest that meat is a very nutritious meal in many regards. At the age of 50, the evidence I’ve see suggests I just don’t need much of it at all anymore, and it’s doing me harm.
In case you were wondering, my affliction is Ulcerative Colitis and, although still on meds, I have not been having the frequent flare-ups I’m accustomed to since cutting most animal products from my diet. For the record, I take B12, Calcium and vitamin D supplements and try to get a little sunshine as often as possible, and I feel pretty damn good for a 50-year-old sickie.
have you tried to avoid sugar in all forms (yes, including fruit) and see if that hepls you? i am just reading yudkins PURE, WHITE AND DEADLY and he mentiones a clinical study done by italian doctors where high sugar consumption increased the chance of getting ulcerative colitis two and a half times. there is no way meat can cause that illness. meat never reaches the colon in the first place. veggies and fruit do, due to their high fiber content. and there were many cases of Crohns, where elimination of sugars in all forms, grains and vegetable oils lead to nothing short of miraculous recoveries. i just read such a story abt. a month ago on sisson’s website among the sucess stories. hey, I am not arguing, just trying to bring your attention to stuff you might want to read. good luck.
He said “I think” once, and his articles and books are based on years of science-based research. Same with Mark Sisson. You say that nutritionfacts.org has an agenda – if you’re really into science-based information, you ought to know that having an agenda is a big red flag for data cherry-picking and fact-bending.
Regarding B, I think you are missing the point. To a vegan/vegetarian, there is no humane way to kill an animal, and no need to eat it’s flesh. While it is even worse that most of the time the animals are treated terribly, the act of murder itself is what makes people shun meat.
“To say that humans shouldn’t kill animals for food/materials goes against history and nature.”
Probably the worst argument for why we should eat meat that people ever use. Yes, we historically have killed and used animals, and yes, it has helped our society advance. However, this is true of many awful things: murder, rape, abuse, torture, and other treacherous acts are part of human history and nature, some of our advances are a direct result of such heinous acts. It doesn’t justify continuing them.
To me, taking a bite of an animal’s body just feels wrong, like I wouldn’t murder and cook up my mother and dig in, so why should I do it to any other creature? They are all capable of feeling pain and fear. They don’t want to die or suffer. I can get all the nutrients I need without killing them, so there is no point. Even if I do run the risk of a deficiency, I wouldn’t really care. I was anemic when I ate meat, now I’m not since I supplement.
I understand that in some cultures and situations one must eat meat just to live and function, and that it is natural to eat meat, but for most of us it is a matter of preference over need. If you choose to eat meat for whatever reason, that’s all fine and dandy; it’s your life, live it how you please. What I don’t get is why it is that omnivores feel a need to tell vegans/vegetarians that their reasons for not eating dead animals aren’t good enough. Wanting to cause as little harm as possible should be respected, even if it means we might not be eating the physically ideal diet. That’s kind of selfish.
Also, look into the ecological impact of eating meat. It’s hard to justify eating a steak when it is extremely harmful to the entire planet. You know the old “vegans are hurting the planet by eating too many plants!” argument, well you need to grow way more plants and use way more water to grow animals for food, it takes an awful lot of plant calories to grow a cow. This has an impact on impoverished workers as well as the environment. Waste runoff from farms can contaminate the water. The meat and dairy industry is the biggest source of greenhouse gas emissions (higher than all transport).
I do agree that it is possible to be healthy as an omnivore, it’s also possible to be healthy as a vegetarian or a vegan. The human body is highly adaptable. It doesn’t really make sense to avoid eating animals if your intention is 100% health-related. However, which diet is healthier isn’t really a concern to vegans who are avoiding meat to harm as few animals as they can. Just imagine for a second that human meat was very nutritious, and if you didn’t eat it you would have to supplement. Most people would choose to take supplements rather than murder and eat other people. That’s how vegans feel about animals.
Murder – noun
: the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/murder
5.
to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/murder?s=t
Because cherry-picking one word and defining it really makes a difference anyway. Whether I used the word in it’s literal sense or not wasn’t the point of the argument. Slaughter is wrong. That better for you?
Doesn’t help at all really.. you are still trying to force your own emotional overtones of this discussion onto me. This is NOT a reasonable discussion.
Not actually. I said very many times, that it is my opinion. I respect yours, and expect the same back. I was simply educating someone on why people choose to be vegan. I don’t know why it upsets you so much. Whether I use the word murder correctly or not is a very empty argument. It shows that you are emotionally invested in the issue to the degree that you have to find the smallest flaw and attack it.
You are perfectly entitled to your own feeling about killing animals.. no-one is telling you that you must kill and/or eat animals.
What you do NOT have, is the right to force your views (or feelings) onto others who disagree with you.
We are ALL part of the same life, part of the same genome: animals AND plants… one massive recycling project… what goes around comes around… we ALL have to borrow life, in order to be alive.
I realise that trying to have this discussion with you is akin to trying to persuade a New Earth Creationist that the Earth is actually over 4 Billion years old and we have evolved from simpler lifeforms… bu these ARE the facts as I see them today — it is hard to reason with blind faith, emotions and ignorance.
“no-one is telling you that you must kill and/or eat animals.”
Did you read the comment I responded to? It was actually someone trying to explain why vegetarianism was stupid and was asking for peoples reasoning on why they would still opt out of meat eating after what he said. So I gave my answer.
I do not force my beliefs on others. It is actually more often done by omnivores, as is seen in the above comment that I responded to. I have never tried to force my vegetarianism on another person, but the amount of meat eaters that try to convince me to eat meat is insane. Like why? Why do you care so much what I eat? If I said I didn’t want to eat bananas ever again because I didn’t like them no one would list reasons why choosing not to eat bananas doesn’t make sense, they wouldn’t care.
Whether or not you have encountered vegetarians who push their beliefs on you says nothing about vegetarians on a whole. Don’t assume things about what I do/do not know and what I would/would not believe.
I was responding to a direct attack on my beliefs, I even said I don’t care if you choose to eat meat, but from my perspective, I can’t bring myself to eat an animal. You know, responding properly to someone’s question rather than getting emotional and making assumptions like you are doing.
It’s interesting that you make the religious comparison when in my post I actually said that I understand why people would eat meat, but that in my opinion death without reason is unnecessary, thus I try to avoid it. I don’t know how much more reasonable I could be. Also, you can’t just say “these are the facts” when there are no facts. Fact: you don’t think an animal’s life is as important as the use you get from it. I understand that, and I know there are many times when the fact that we use animals saves peoples lives, and I am not against that. But another fact is that you can live healthily without eating animals, you can’t contest that. The millions of vegetarians and vegans prove that.
It isn’t blind faith, emotions, or ignorance guiding my decision to not eat meat. It is the fact that I see the pain. Science shows animals feel pain and emotion. Science shows vegetarians can be healthy. So instead of taking an emotional stance of “but that’s the way it is, we eat meat, we are meant to eat meat, so that’s what I’m gonna do”, I decided to look at the facts, the facts about the impact on animals and the environment rather than just what may or may not be optimal our bodies.
It seems as though you saw that I confessed to not eating meat and didn’t read anything else in my argument.
As I said in my original post:
“If you choose to eat meat for whatever reason, that’s all fine and dandy; it’s your life, live it how you please.”
So I don’t know what your point is. Because I made it clear that those were all my reasons. To educate the person who asked why I would avoid meat when there is humanely slaughtered meat, and those are my reasons. My personal reasons. Which I made clear. So unless you have a real point, and not just that you are so upset over the idea that someone else has different beliefs that don’t hurt you but you don’t agree with, your post was utterly useless.
You are either genuinely naive, or being disingenuous if you really think that what you are saying and your choice of word is not harming others… “murder”, “slaughter” etc.. are highly emotive terms used to generate a reaction — so please don’t act so surprised when you get one. They are also political tools to help direct policy towards a veg*an agenda.. already prevalent as Chris points out in this article: where it is commonly (and blindly) accepted that fruits and vegetables are somehow “blessed food”.. I disagree strongly with this approach and see only great harm for many (and vast profits for a few) if we continue on down this road. Mass starvation food riots etc…
Read the rest of the comments, including my own and you may get a better understanding — or perhaps you would be better off staying on blogs more suited to your own life choices and sensibilities
You realize that factory farming is one of the major reasons of world starvation right? I’ve been reading your comments here, watching you run around and very smug-like assume that it is everyone else around you who is naive, and let me say, it’s given me great entertainment! You have a seriously strange phobia of veganism to the point where you assume there seems to be some grand conspiracy to get everyone to become vegan, and you only finally revealed yourself with this last comment, which was essentially a politically motivated disdain for corporate profits, etc. etc. Wow. Did you hear the whoosh when it all went way over your head? Needless to say, I’m loving how irate it makes you that someone happens to be a vegan and succeeds on it. The childish tantrums you’ve thrown in this article’s comment section alone have really been a good jest.
you did not read the article or what? right in the beginning chris says this is for those who eat vegan because they think it is healthier than omnivore. not for those who eat vegan for religious or moral reasons. everybody has a right to die for his ideals and as far as I am concerned, veganism is one way to do it. piece.
I wasn’t responding to the article, I was responding to a comment made by another individual who asked why someone would go vegan for health reasons and why they would for ethical reasons when you can get meat that isn’t treated as badly. Scroll up and read what I was responding to. It makes sense that way.
It’s the comment by Michael that starts:
“I am curious why someone would even become vegetarian or vegan?
I normally hear two reasons; a) to be healthier b) they are an animal lover/ killing animals is wrong etc”
I did read the article and thought it was fine. I agree that going vegan for health reasons makes no sense, as I said in my above reply.
sorry, my bad. you’re right
whoever is eating abnormal quantities of fruits sets course towards fatty liver disease due to the excessive fructose load. and you can’t live on veggies alone unless you are a gorilla munching tree leaves all day and have a 6m long bowel like he does (hint: you don’t). I can’t believe in today’s world of accessible information people still don’t take the pain to do proper research before they go full steam and damage their health by following wrong advice. Quite unbelievable, I tell you.
Interesting discussion here about: how despite putting only vegetation into it’s mouth, the lowland Gorilla’s digestive system is such that it actually ingests an HIGH-FAT diet — as much as 66% of energy…
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/should-all-animals-eat-a-high-fat-low-carb-diet.html#.Uw4m6YUz0qM
Oh and in case I need to point this out for Sharon… no, humans are NOT the same as gorillas
very true. the only creature on earth eating a high carb diet is the human animal, unless he is a low carb dieter.
Thanks for not being quite as indignant as other vegans who post on such a topic – but i want to point out that you may THINK you have all the nutrients – your blood tests show OK (BTW how LONG have you been vegan? – cause b12 takes about 5 years to run out of if you formerly ate animal products) – but blood tests measure ONLY A FRACTION of the nutrient/vitamin/mineral needs of the human body –
i do tire of the “everyone finds their own diet good for you” comment – it shows a total intentional or unintentional disregard for basic human physiology and biology (as Chris pointed out CLEARLY in the article) -sure you can keep a cat ALIVE on cereal-based cat food with little or no meat – but the cat will not thrive, and will fall victim to chronic ills at a younger age –
same with you – you may feel great now – and even be losing weight making you happy, but you are not vegan technically – because your body is robbing your bones, muscles and tendons – literally eating itself – in order to save your internal organs and to maintain that claimed good blood work –
keep it going – you will find out – hopefully not too late – that you are on a dead-end nutritional path.
Thank u!! Most people are not getting this concept. Vegetarian, vegan or other diets. Well rounded meals and eating the right foods are key. To be honest I am vegetarian but my husband is making the switch to vegan. It is a change up. It requires different prep. But done RIGHT one can be very healthy. And yes I see sooooo many people saying they are vegetarian or vegan and they consume mostly carbs and soy. This would b unhealthy for any diet!! –
Sorry but I don’t believe you are being a vegan if you have to take side supplements. It is better to eat the required food to rely on pills and over the counter supplements. Most Vegans and vegetarians have health problems and are on supplemental diets. but the general view is they are healthier!, This is a huge misconception.
“Most Vegans and vegetarians have health problems and are on supplemental diets.”
Garbage. Which studies show this false opinion is true?
The truth is, as I already referenced here, that eating meats is either of negligible health difference (the large-scale European studies) or eating meats is MUCH more UNHEALTHY, much increased mortality (The American Adventism studies: 5 YEARS off your life! – and remember that is *across the board* E.g. some eating meats, perhaps reading this blog, will die because of it in the next couple of years, bowel cancer one of the major killers implicated, whereas others will get away with it being unaffected.)
Your claim of an alleged misconception is a misconception.
Yes, I absolutely agree with your comments .
Do you think perhaps “eating mostly carbs and soy products” was the problem and not that you were vegan? If you eat poorly you will feel poorly regardless of whether you are vegan or a meat-eater!
It is possible but eating those products was the norm among the vegan community I affiliated with; as well, I should’ve made clear that I ate plenty of veggies and fruit but struggled for satiation with them, thus carbs. And eating beans every day got boring, thus soy and seitan. When I was vegetarian and ate eggs and yogurt and drank milk, my health was definitely a-ok.
I’m still waiting to hear why soy and grains are bad for you. There is no credible evidence to say that moderate amounts are.
The whole soy is bad because of phytoestrogens scare was thoroughly debunked and unless you have celiac disease, gluten is just another type of protein.
This is a sloppy opinion piece disguised as coming from a place of science.
Mike,
Try reading GRAIN BRAIN. It cites a number of studies that suggest gluten is bad for lots of reasons – and not just for people with celiac / coeliac disease.
Hey Mike, what’s your source on the soy-phytoestrogen debunking? Keen to learn more about this, but when I Googled it I got nothing.
Rook check this article out.. http://jb.asm.org/content/195/9/1902.full.
do your homework Mike. nobody is going to mouth feed the truth to you. google….
“small amounts of grains and soy are not harmful”
I’m sure very small amounts of cocaine won’t do much harm either. Just because something won’t hurt you in small amounts doesn’t mean you should eat it.
RIGHT!! I wish there was a like button
As an omnivore, I think its important to occasionally go vegan for a day or two out of the month… The same reason I get the supersized Big Mac at McDonalds. I’m in great health, its all about a balanced bio-diverse diet and lots of exercise/meditation/yoga.
I think anyone who is investigating any kind of diet should always take into account any nutritional precautions. If it is done the right way then no one should be getting sick. A whole foods plant based vegan diet following one of the health programs that already exist has zero reports of any deficiencies what so ever. So making a generalized statement about the vegan diet causing deficiency is somewhat biased. If you look into the omnivore diet, one of of every three American’s will die of a heart attack where heart health problem are very rare for someone following a healthy vegan diet. Heart disease still exists in vegetarians as well.
I think anyone investigating nutrition should realize that you have a genetic requirement for food. Meaning you can’t make up for a nutrient deficiency by reading a book. Either you give your body what it needs and you flourish or you don’t and you suffer. The more you meet your needs the higher your function the further away the lower you function. You can mask it for many years but eventually you will have detriments. No matter how you slice it.
Right on, Daniel. You nailed it. I love vegetarian and vegan diet and was one or the other most of my life but feel so much better on diets that include high quality animal protein in terms of overall health, energy, and performance. Paleo diet works even better for me because my body does not tolerate ANY grains, legumes, or dairy and the intolerances to these and processed foods got worse as I got older. I concluded that my body does not care what types of foods I prefer – it wants what it needs and if I do not give it, it cannot and does not serve me well. I have learned to listen to my body by closely monitoring how I feel after I consume a new food. I found this to be the right path for me and my guess is for many others.
So you had a poor diet and then choose to blame the problem on “vegetarianism.” I just cannot believe the amount of times I have seen this raised in arguments on the internet, when in fact it is a non argument. Plan your diet well – vegetarian or omni. It is not excuse to scare people off a healthy, ethical and sustainable way of living if they wish to do so!
you know what’s liberating about paleo? you don’t need to plan your diet! fm the comments I have a strong feeling that vegetarians and vegans spend a lot of time planning their diets and making sure they don’t run into deficiencies (those who do it “well”). those who don’t do it well, suffer. i don’t plan anything, not even my next meal. and if i have not time to eat, i simply skip the meal and am not even hungry! and I can’t go wrong because the only thing I do is I avoid food which does me harm and eat everything that supports my health. because at the end of the day, health is all that counts. a healthy person has many wishes, ideals and fantasies. an ill one, has only 1. to be healthy again. moral, ethics and ideals go down the drain as soon as you get sick because the survival instincts kick in. so if you are ready to die for your ideals, that is completely fine. many people do. not me though, not me…
On a Diabetes forum where I post, is a lady who like me, uses an LCHF diet to manage her condition.
She chooses not to eat meat for her own reasons, which I respect and she certainly never tries to force her views on anyone else.
She freely offers that: it is a great deal harder for her to manage an LCHF diet as a vegetarian (allowing eggs and dairy), than it is for me eating meat. She does not think that vegan would be possible for her.
I also see throughout the comments here, feedback to “failed” vegans who “didn’t do it properly”.. and have asked (without any response) why and when nourishing our bodies became such a complicated task? It seems you almost need a degree in nutrition.. which further underlines for me my concern regarding forcing such a lifestyle choice on innocent children; during their vital years of growing and development.
I see veg*ans pointing to figureheads like Einstein (even on a veg*an website I read that he probably only ate vegetarian for the last year of his life) or the current world strongest man, who did not get that way by eating vegetarian… he reportedly became vegetarian in 2005 and vegan in 2011 — just in time to become the spokesperson for PETA (I wonder how well that pays?)
Dr’s Neal Barnard and McDougall both grew up on their families’ livestock farms. Barnard in particular not “converting” to meatless until his 20’s. Now he fronts the PCRM… which for some reason tries to obfuscate their vegan agenda.. why try to hide a good thing?
Like you, I can enjoy a tasty varied diet, even missing meals, as I trust my body… confident that I am well-nourished and healthy. If I need further proof, I have years of lab tests and marked improvements to my teeth, gums, skin and hair — plus I rarely even get a cold these days.
FrankG: what is your area of expertise? Are you helping Chris K on this blog too – as I see many, many posts by you here – just wondering is all especially since you mention above you post on a Diabetes forum?
Just curious as well, how it is that the PCRM bothers you so much because you posted this many times here as well. I think many docs today are clearly using whole food plant based (first used back in the 80s) instead of vegan for many reasons, i.e. vegans can eat very poor diets.
I don’t think that any one is arguing there are health/nutrition clinical conditions for eating or not eating certain foods thereby adjusting diet if necessary.
Why do you ask “Curious”?
If my comments don’t already speak for themselves, then I see no reason to justify myself to yet another anonymous pseudonym.
I ask because I am curious!
FrankG is anonymous!
Then perhaps you should heed the cautionary tale (tail?) of the proverbial cat.
I’ve no intention of discussing who I am, or why I am here with you.
I think that my comments stand on their own.. if you feel that they do not and you have specific questions regarding them, or counter-arguments to them, then you so far as I am concerned you could probably feel free to say so.
But given that you seem unable to grasp why I take issue with the VPCRM hiding their true agenda, pretending to be one thing while saying another… and that several others have referenced the PCRM site as if it were a reliable source, then I have serious doubts that we can see eye to eye on many issues here.
FrankG, I’d like to address one issue and ask one question. I believe that nourishing our bodies has become such a complicated task because the quality of our food has become so compromised over the last few decades. We have modified our food sources so much that we can’t possibly know what long-term effects we may be creating. History is full of examples of wonderful innovations that proved to be detrimental. Regardless of diet, we all would do better to educated ourselves on what we put into our bodies. My questions to you is about your stated marked improvement in teeth, gums, skin and hair. This suggests that at some point these things were worse than they are now and that the improvements are due to dietary changes. However, you never said what you changed – or I missed it. So, what exactly is the dietary reason for these improvements?
I wouldn’t consider taking a vegan multi vite the same as earning a degree. Some people are just careless, and they really don’t WANT it to work. They want to keep eating the same crap they always have and have a good excuse to do it.
But it can be argued that you are dying for your ideals as well. A statement like that does nothing to move the discussion forward.
I have seen a lot of sickly looking vegans in my time trying to be a vegan. Everyone is different. Some do well on it, but I’ve seen a lot of sickly and sallow-faced vegans more than not in the end, including my half-brother. Always has dark circles under his eyes, though he is a health nut.
So what? I have seen a hell of a lot of sickly looking meat eaters around. What’s your point?
I agree! Stop blaming the label of ur diet. Omni eaters or vegetarian, bad eating habits are BAD eating habits regardless the label. And u will suffer health problems due to these habits.
Why I don’t have to think twice about my vegan diet — There’s no ethical way to take a life.
Taken directly from the article,
“but there was no survival difference between vegetarians or omnivores. Nor was there any difference in rates of heart disease or stroke between the two groups. In other words, omnivores who are health conscious live just as long as vegetarians that are health conscious.”
Meaning that you can go through an entire life without supporting the meat industry, without existing by taking the lives of others to sustain your own, and live just as long as omnivores. The fact is that you no longer need to eat meat to live a healthy life, so why do you?
Finally, even if my health was negatively affected by my diet, EVEN IF, by some absurd study, the injury that has taken away everything I love in life for the last year was proven to be a direct result of my diet (and not, as I suspect, from my own mistake of overtraining three hours a day, six days a week for a very long time) then I still would make no change. I will gladly sacrifice a portion of my own health in order to prevent cruelty and slaughter of others.
As a side note, if you’re going to promote a paleo diet, and then go on to say that
“EPA and DHA. These long-chain omega fats are found exclusively in marine algae and fish and shellfish”
is essential to your health, then count out a large part of land dwelling people throughout history. I highly doubt the likelihood that something available only to those cultures that ate fish is absolutely necessary to our body. Beneficial, sure, but hey, Silk has got you covered with Soymilk with DHA and 30% more calcium than milk.
Nancy, your comment does not make sense. A vegan diet is likely as healthy as it gets. Maybe you are allergy to some whole plant-based food but need medical help to figure that out.
There are plenty of studies and well-documented books that show dairy and meat are not good for you.
There are just as many, and likely more, that prove that dairy and meat can be perfectly healthy parts of a good diet.
Any study that claims “meat”, especially, is bad for you fails to control for anything else, such as source of meat and other lifestyle factors. Is vegan healthier than eating industrially-produced food and fast food all the time? Yes. Is vegan healthier than my diet, which consists of locally-raised grass-fed beef and chicken, as well as produce from local farmers? Nope.
This is a very ignorant article. And if your lack of education on the subject does not make a vegetarian bad for you. Non fermented soy products should not be consumed especially by men. There are B 12 supplements. I’m just so confused about the lack of knowledge. .. Our ancestors, including the “ice man” were actually proven to eat no or little meat. There are long term scientific studies proving a plant based diet is better for you and the environment. Watch the movie Forks Over Knives. … This is the dumbest article I’ve read in a very long time…
sorry to have to say so but your comment is the one which is very dumb. your wishful thinking won’t change the facts of live. stay entrenched on your misguided ideals and pay the price years fm now with your health. you must be very young to be so naive…
by the way, as far as forks over knives go read this review to get a second opinion: http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/09/22/forks-over-knives-is-the-science-legit-a-review-and-critique/
Reviews and critiques of other peoples work abound. I am glad Minger is involved in making her opinions informed and sharing those with others. I am also glad I can do my own research when a mass produced book, edited for sales and same for a movie are released. I wish Minger would do such and in depth public critique of Cordain’s work/ for book is full of errors and untruths, just to fair to the public.
Nutritional studies
posted before completed:
Nutritional studies and research, for the most part, are hard to do – can’t do blinded studies in most all cases because people have to see/report what they eat. However, epidemiological and retrospective studies do provide information. Then you need to factor in genetics, etc. – meaning we all know people who practically abuse their bodies and live long healthy lives…not all smokers get cancer or emphysema, etc.
i seriously doubt you do your research the way Minger does. that girl is a genius and i know one when i see one :-). I must admit I did not read Cordain’s work (I have a big problem with the low-fat paradigm), but I heard about it. I am a big fan of the Jaminets, Sisson, Taubes, Kresser, Robb Wolf, Masterjohn, the Drs Eades, Peter Attia, of course Minger etc. Could it be possible that they are all wrong? You don’t need to be me, to answer that question
Quite an assumption on your part einstein! I have done extensive research in this area and was part of research IRB approved in another area of healthcare – behavior change. As far as I know, Minger, who is an intelligent person, has done her own published research – just saying since you brought it up.
Of course they could all be wrong, whether the research or just a someone interrupting research. “No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong.”
The real: Albert Einstein
correction: As far as I know, Minger, who is an intelligent person, has NOT done her own published research –
Oh right.. so we should just ignore everything she has done? LOL
I’m getting a little pissed off at those who think that an appeal to authority holds any meaning…
What formal qualifications did Galileo have or Newton for that matter… if they were around today would we similarly ignore them?
Tel you what: imagine Albert Einstein (who pretty much flunked “high” school and dropped out of University) walked into a room full of physicists and made a pronouncement about a new hypothesis of his. Do you imagine that for one second his past genius and qualifications would in any way make those other scientific minds accept what he had to say, without question or scrutiny?!?
There is no free ride in science. The data speaks for itself which is what Denise Minger points out… and T. Colin Campbell based his conclusions on his own vegan agenda… that is inexcusable in my view.
Being able to apply the scientific method is not limited to those with a degree in a scientific field.
Einstein was working as a patent clerk when he wrote world-changing papers. Leonard Susskind: one of the leading figures in string theory, quantum field theory, quantum statistical mechanics and quantum cosmology started his working life as a plumber!
No reply button below so adding follow up here: I was quoting Albert Einstein so, not sure why the backlash. The list is quite long – Bill Gates didn’t finish college – no one will argue that brilliance CAN come from outside established schooling. I was responding to einstein’s ” seriously doubt you do your research the way Minger does.” comment as the only reason I was pointing out that I have done research into the subject like Minger and have this as a life experience. This is confusing – you want science you don’t want science?
I am off to do my own research.
2 things. so you did your own research into the subject like Minger. that’s a bold statement and there’s no way I believe it without a link to it. and your results came out similar to those of Campbell’s? As much as I don’t like Campbell’s biased conclusions, I don’t think you are in the same league with him, as a scientist, are you? Minger knocked that guy out of his socks and left him breathless and did not even need to do research. She “just” cracked the numbers of Campbell’s own research and interpreted them correctly. Isn’t that funny? Now if you are serious about your own research blabla, drop a link to it. I promise to read it with a critical eye but without bias. or go and try to fool somebody else with your fake credentials.
Great to hear from yet another supporter of Denise Minger’s approach to pointing out the flaws in works such as The China Study and Forks Over Knives… always good to hear
and I would recommend to all the the vegas out there to read this article: http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/ for their own benefit. if any one of them is so entrenched in his views that he does not even want to listen to anything that does not correlate with his beliefs, that person is beyond help and there’s nothing anyone can do to help him. Sad, so sad…
‘Our ancestors, including the “ice man” were actually proven to eat no or little meat. ‘
The “ice man” Ötzi, was Neolithic not Paleolithic. And the debate continues as to the diet on which he grew up and lived… who has the better evidence.. those who study the stable isotopes in the bone, teeth, or hair samples? It makes sense to me that the bone and teeth isotopes are more reflective of lifelong diet that the hair would be.
Regarding his last meals…
“According to the DNA reconstruction, the man’s last meal was composed of red deer (Cervus elaphus) meat, and, possibly, cereals; this meal had been preceded by another one based on ibex (Capra ibex), different species of dicots, and cereals.”
http://www.pnas.org/content/99/20/12594.full
I don’t understand how looking at the last meals of a man who died 5000 years ago in a world with such different food to what we have now, in an environment so different to where we live now, can tell us what we should eat now.
He was 45, died of a wound, was 1.65m, and 50kg in weight. What does that really tell us about how optimal his diet was?
Fact is, until recently people who lived in very cold climates subsisted mainly on seal blubber. Plants don’t grow so well in ice. You should study the Inuit Eskimos.
Of course caution should be taken! There is to much bashing going on here. The science is definitely not “in” that being vegetarian is bad for you, most studies say otherwise. If there is new evidence coming out then we should weigh that, but the science is not in, and maybe it never will be. Most people are bashing vegetarians bc it fits their MO of wanting to eat their tasty fleshy treats, but all this article is saying to me is that you need to be smart about it and that goes for every kind of diet.
We know there are bad diets, but there is no perfect diet, and everyones body is different. I encourage vegetarianism from an ethical, environmental, and health standpoint, but I believe and know that some people need to eat meat and that in small amounts it can be very healthy and possibly more so than vegetarianism. This article shouldn’t be seen as an opportunity to bash what is a very compassionate, healthy, and beneficial way of living, but as a way for vegetarians to be smarter and not be arrogant about our lifestyles.
Then why so many arrogant and insulting comments by veg*ans???
Because they are mentally unbalanced. I spent enough time around vegans….Very obsessive and very pleased with themselves and down and condescending on everyone else.
Eating mostly carbs and soy products is likely why you were malnourished. Not vegan ism in and of itself.
Christopher, no offense, but you are not malnourished if you eat mostly carbs and soy. That is definately not a healthy vegan diet. you should have eaten mostly veggies and fruits, also some GOOD carbs and not so much soy. with this kind of nutrition it is in fact not possible to get sick..if you tried living a vegan or vegetarian lifestyle for ethic reasons and stuff, maybe you can try again with a proper nutrition.
WOW, that is interesting because my natural plant-based diet has had the opposite impact on my health. Besides feeling better than I have for decades my weight is well below the maximum for my height, my waist is much smaller, my blood pressure and uric acid levels are way down.
I do not miss that meat, milk or cheese, which in many cases is near poison…
Yes, if you are a vegan on diet coke and French Fries eventually it will catch up to you.
Try eating whole plant-based food focusing on legumes, greens and other vegetables, nuts, avocado and seeds with occasional fish and eggs.
Dude, why would you eat mostly soy and carbs? There are all sorts of online resources available to show you how to do it the right way. Try Engine 2 diet. Or Forks over Knives…
I would die of malnutrition if I ate mainly soy and carbs because I hate soy and carbs are mostly processed foods… yuck.